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(WIP) v065 Merge Discussion

I like to discuss, What should be merged into the v065 Masters. I have some Texture Replacers that I would like to see in the new Build, since they replicate the original art style very well and boost performance in certain areas. Most of these mods below can be found on my Nexus Account or in Morroblivion Improved v0.1.1.

Note: Morroblivion Improved will NOT be merged into the Master everything included is separated.

Below are the Textures, That I would like in v065

Already Merged into v065, These were separated from Morroblivion Improved

  • Improved Kwama Eggs: Provides a new model and textures, Identical to the original!
  • Oblivion Style Quest icons: Provides original Quest icons based on the Quest-Line in the style of the Vanilla oblivion icons
  • Oblivion Style Faction icons: Provides original Faction icons based on the Faction in the style of the Vanilla oblivion icons
  • Improved Sack: Provides a new model and textures, Identical to the original!
  • Improved Basket: Provides a new model and textures, Identical to the original!
  • Improved Guar Skin Banners: Identical to the original
  • The Caldera Patch: Only the interior part was merged, Provides Bug Fixes to Door Markers and Path-Grids

 

I was also considering Morroblivion - Improved Landscape lod and fps - for v064 and Dunmeri Urns, The only issue with Dunmeri Urns in 1 Urn floats slightly off the ground it's something I could easily fix

 

 

 

 

Edited by: qwertyasdfgh on 01/27/2020 - 06:50
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In my opinion, switching to

In my opinion, switching to texture replacers which are similar to the original Morrowind would be a mistake.  Bethesda has made it clear that they do not want us using game assets from the original Morrowind (in a different game engine).  Our goal should be to distance ourselves from including anything in the Morroblivion master which resembles the art-style of the original Morrowind.  Ideally, people should be able to glance at the default Morroblivion game assets and know immediately that they are not based on Morrowind assets.  All mods which recreate the original Morrowind art-style should remain separate and independent (unofficial) from the main Morroblivion project.

With that in mind, I vote for the Oblivion style quest and faction icons to be merged into the master.  Regarding the Improved mods, I like that they are replacements for the original assets, but making them look "identical to the original" would be an invitation for Bethesda to investigate us for possible legal issues: making sure that those assets only look like the original and are not directly made from them.  Ex: upscaling textures with AI algorithms would potentially violate copyright laws since the original work was directly read into an automated system to generate the higher quality version.

 

Just to clarify: I am still a supporter of keeping Morroblivion reasonably faithful to the original Morrowind, especially because it allows easier compatibility with Morrowind Mods which are ported to Morroblivion.  However, I think an exception must be made to the visual and audio aspects to avoid the issues above.  Here are some links to relevant documentation on Fair Use Copyright Laws and Transformative projects:

 

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I have made this topic sticky

I have made this topic sticky, instead of my old one.

If my vote counts I support including the urn replacer, but not the linked architecture textures (simply because I actually like current Morroblivion textures more).

Regarding legal issues, you seem to be overthinking it a little bit - the only thing Bethesda's EULA prohibits is literally porting assets between different games. Creating something from scratch even based on their design is fine. Also, let's not forget we're talking about a 14 years old game, modding scene for which is a ghost town.

 

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qwertyasdfgh wrote:

qwertyasdfgh wrote:

Regarding legal issues, you seem to be overthinking it a little bit - the only thing Bethesda's EULA prohibits is literally porting assets between different games. Creating something from scratch even based on their design is fine. Also, let's not forget we're talking about a 14 years old game, modding scene for which is a ghost town.

You make valid points.  I agree that something made from scratch based on the original art-style is probably fine -- as long as the original work was not directly used as a template.  However, I would disagree with any suggestion that Bethesda lawyers would not care just because this is a 14 year old game and its modding scene is a ghost town.  Let's not forget that this is an industry known for "surprise mechanics", "canvas bags" and "horse armor".

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ponyrider0 wrote:

ponyrider0 wrote:

Let's not forget that this is an industry known for "surprise mechanics", "canvas bags" and "horse armor".

All of which, while bad practices, are ultimately for profit. I just don't see what profit can Bethesda possibly gain now by going after a couple of modders. Unless, of course, they plan a Morrowind remake (in which case Skywind will be their first target).

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I honestly do not think we

I honestly do not think we should merge any texture replacers.  Let the user decide on an optional texture pack if they so desire it.  We should respect the considerable work of those who have developed Morroblivion in the past.

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ponyrider0 wrote:

ponyrider0 wrote:

You make valid points.  I agree that something made from scratch based on the original art-style is probably fine -- as long as the original work was not directly used as a template.

My apologies for my wording "Identical to the Original" While the textures are indeed in the Style of the original, They're not the same at all. They're cleaner and much Higher Resolution then anything from 2001. They're created no different then Skywind Textures. Any Replacers I ever port are Entirely remade from scratch, I contact the original authors to verify it and look into the Model Data personally. The last thing I want is a Ban from Nexus.

ponyrider0 wrote:

Let's not forget that this is an industry known for "surprise mechanics", "canvas bags" and "horse armor".

qwertyasdfgh wrote:

All of which, while bad practices, are ultimately for profit. I just don't see what profit can Bethesda possibly gain now by going after a couple of modders. Unless, of course, they plan a Morrowind remake (in which case Skywind will be their first target).

I totally agree^ Bethesda wants nothing more then profit, If they wanted to "Attack" Morroblivion they probably would of done so already considering it's been more then 10yrs and even then they would go after Skywind and Skyblivion due to their sheer size and community around them.

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A Side note! Regarding

A Side note! Regarding Textures, All the above mentioned Texture replacer will not be merged just left separate. However I did merge the Guar Skin Banners since their original counterparts where "2001" compliant :P .. The difference between the two were merrily resolution!

What's everyone thoughts on Model Replacers? New Models with Remade Textures, It's more appealing and people may enjoy the updated items.


I would propose I recreate the Normals of the current textures, I do like the default textures but they're normals are off? Atleast see how the effect looks in-game..

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I want to clear up confusion

I want to clear up confusion regarding the copyright situation and Bethesda's motivation to ban us from official websites and nexus.  Bethesda is not the copyright-holder that concerns us: instead there are "third parties".  Bethesda has been signing limited license deals with these "third parties" to use game assets in single games.

This is what I think potentially happened: when Morroblivion re-used Morrowind assets in Oblivion, the "third parties" sued Bethesda for unpaid royalties from our usage.  Since it would be useless to try to sue the mod developers for monetary damages, Bethesda was losing money to their lawyers for every billable hour until the case was resolved.  The only thing they could do was to minimize their financial loss as fast as possible.  First, they officially distanced themselves from Morroblivion, by black-listing us from official forums.  Then, they tried to prevent future problems by scaring the rest of the modding community enough to try to prevent similar copyright lawsuits in the future.  They probably even threatened Nexus with monetary damages if they ever host Morroblivion or similar projects in the future.

This is a completely different situation than what Skywind and Skyblivion face.  While those projects are afraid of competing with a potential official remake, ours fears are related to pissing off Bethesda executives because they need to pay lawyers to deal with our copyright high jinks.  And everyone gets angry when they have to pay lawyers for no good reason, especially game executives who would rather focus their time on how many more billions of dollars they can make from microtransactions.

Personally, I think Bethesda executives are more than happy to allow us to continue developing free mods which increase nostalgia and enthusiasm for their old games.  Modders are the reason Bethesda's old games still sell for $15 or more.  We just need to avoid making them angry.

To bring this all back to my original comments: I am not interested in whether or not we can win a copyright lawsuit related to our game assets.  If a copyright lawsuit is ever filed, we will have already lost because I don't think any of us will be hiring an attorney.  I am just trying to suggest an overly cautious strategy to avoid even the appearance that we might be infringing on a copyright.  As long as everyone understands what the issues and motivations actually are, I'm fine with whatever we do.
 

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If we replace the old models,

If we replace the old models, we lose them from the build, with no option to choose to install them.  I guess I just don't see what's wrong with letting people choose something like a Morroblivion Improved if they like it and their system can handle it, while keeping the old meshes and textures in the official build out of respect to the modders who brought Morroblivion to v064, where it has been enjoyed for over five years.  Crush the bugs, add the few things that were missing by all means, but keep it the Morroblivion we have come to know and love!  Many people will appreciate an overhaul and download it separately.  Plus, we do not have to concern ourselves with larger and larger bsa files if we keep v065 consistent with v064.

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v065 should be close to the

v065 should be close to the final release of the Base Installer with the exception of..

  • Added or Fixed Path-grids
  • Added or Fixed Normal Maps for the Default textures
  • Bugs Fixes
  • Fixed Existing 3D Models, May include UV Map, Collision Data or Misc tuning

I'm almost certain 99% of the Bugs are already fixed between ponyrider0 and brainslasher besides some quirks, don't quote me on that one though as I'm not certain.

Anything added or improved would fall under the category of "Morroblivion Improved" Which would include..

  • New Model and Textures
  • Filled/Updated Landscapes
  • More Oblivion-like addition

I think doing things in this approach would allow user to install the Base along with Past Morrowind Mods or if they want a more modern approach they can optionally install Morroblivion Improved.

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Will it be possible to

Will it be possible to continue playing v64 savegames normally?

Will the innovations from the Morroblivion Unofficial Patch (Socucius Ergalla Class Quiz, Multiskill trainer & Quest to initiate the Oblivion main quest) be included in the new master file?

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Depend on the circumstances.
Depend on the circumstances. Generally speaking yes, however some fixes may not be applied fully. However there are some things that may prevent a smooth update. I don't know fully what's changed, but I know that the next release will include a revamped system for Werewolf transformation and Hircine's ring (more precise, optimized and less crash prone), that is composed by total different script that the one in he current master. (I know as I wrote both systems). Updating while the werwolf quest script is active can be unsaviour, and I feel to discourage it.
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This is an updated list of

This is an updated list of known bugs for Morroblivion: https://morroblivion.com/forums/morroblivion-problems/active-morroblivion-bugs-and-fixes-list-2020

My estimate is that 99% of known bugs for the main quest are fixed.  The Tribunal and Bloodmoon expansions are completable, but still may have some bugs in their main quests (more playtesting and reports needed).  Faction quests and side-quests have the most known bugs, with some of them still requiring console commands to complete.

Regarding compatibility with v064 savegames, we won't know for certain until we have a chance to playtest v065, but I think we can make some estimations:

  • Just like with the Morroblivion Unofficial Patch, existing savegames may not be able to take advantage of certain bugfixes: modifications to persistent actors and persistent objects (NPCs, doors, some quest items), some quests where dialog is already incorrectly advanced to an unfixable state.
  • As llde mentioned, savegames where the character is saved in werewolf state will be highly incompatible, causing crashes and/or locked player controls.
  • v064 savegames where the character has not advanced in the Bloodmoon or werewolf quests will be most compatible.
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If you recnetly started a new
If you recently started a new game with the last version of EngineBugFixes the issue that caused persistent reference data stuck in the savegame is resolved (until object is moved/modified by a script).
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What are everyone's thoughts

What are everyone's thoughts on incorporating OBSE and all the required OBSE plugins into the Morroblivion Installer?  It would greatly simplify installation of Morroblivion.  I do not think there are any mod-managers that natively support installation of OBSE and OBSE plugins, so there should not be any incompatibilities with it being installed via the Morroblivion Installer.

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I belive may violate author's
I belive may violate author's permissions. And while it may be not an issue for OBSE (but ask shadeMe before), for some others plugins it may be more problematic
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Well, yes... obviously we

Well, yes... obviously we will have to ask for permission but if we set that aside for now, can anyone think of any other reason why we should not include OBSE in the installer?  If there are no reasons other than permission issues, then we can reach out to the authors of the required OBSE components for permission:

  1. OBSE (ianpatt, behippo, scruggsywuggsy the ferret, Timeslip, The J, DragoonWraith, SkyRanger-1, shademe, kyoma)
  2. MenuQue (kyoma)
  3. Elys Universal Silent Voice (Elys)

Thoughts? Comments? Suggestions?

 

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Any chance of getting

Any chance of getting permission to replace the current legion helmet with this: https://www.nexusmods.com/oblivion/mods/20676? Maybe without the feathery part?

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OBSE is trivially easy to

OBSE is trivially easy to install, and most modders will have done so before tackling Morroblivion. Wrye Bash can install OBSE plugins just fine, though it throws up a warning.

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I defiantly support the idea

I defiantly support the idea of merging the required OBSE plugins, would make the process alot easier!