Crouching & Thievery: NPCs can't see you if you're crouching
Submitted by tgkahn on Thu, 02/24/2011 - 18:28
| Project: | Morroblivion |
| Component: | NPCs and Merchants |
| Category: | bug report |
| Priority: | normal |
| Assigned: | Unassigned |
| Status: | fixed |
Description
It seems like if you are indoors, in dark lighting, that NPCs cannot see you if you are crouching, even if they are stairing at you. This allows you to steal things in front of their face, even in front of large groups of people. I'm not sure what affects this but it makes stealing items much much simplier.
Not sure if my input will be useful in any way, but just in case, I'll have a go at it anyways
I wonder if it is connected to clothes...
Were you by any chance wearing morrowind clothing? And if so did it happen during first person or third person view? In my experience, some morrowind clothes will make you undetectable to AI when you're sneaking, but if I remember correctly it is depending on third person/first person view.
No. This is because the items are not currently owned by anybody, so nobody cares if you pick them up.
Thermador is working on cell ownership so the player can't just take anything they want without anybody caring.
I am missing Morrowinds ownership system, where you can sell everything to everyone but the owner himself...
This would be also more realistic than it is now, because who would blame me for stealing if I sell a random iron dagger...
Supposedly the reason they changed it from Morrowind -> Oblivion was that Morrowind's theft system made it VERY easy to become rich by selling stolen stuff, and could quickly unbalance the game. In Oblivion, they tied it to the quests for the Thieves guild. Morroblivion in between - you just have to FIND a thieves guild member before you can sell stolen stuff, which is not that hard.
Getting back on topic, we need someone who is having this problem to do some testing. It's quite easy to tell if something is owned - it will have the 'red hand' icon over it when you take it. If you're not truly stealing (there is no red hand icon) and people don't report you even though they're right next to you, then ownership of the object needs to be set. If you ARE actually stealing (red hand icon) the problem is not ownership, it's something else. So then you would try it with different clothes on and stuff.
This will also depend on the responsibility of the NPC.
I do not know at what level an NPC will mind if you take something, but all NPC's were given a default responsibility of 50.
Thermador has asked somebody to test this and report back, but we have not heard from anybody.
It is discouraging that people will report "bugs," but nobody will give us feedback when we ask for it.
I am able to replicate this issue and was wearing only Morrowind clothes at the time (red hand and everything, but NPCs did not see me while crouching, which was a bit odd while a shop owner was following me around the store as they are wont to do in Oblivion). I will test this evening and see whether that is the culprit.
Maybe this bug should be nicknamed "Morrobvious" because you can sneak sucessfully in obvious places.
You know the Mage's Guild in Balmora?
How the female Orc there has a copy of Legions Of The Dead?
Well when I was trying to get that book, the Dark Elf from the upper floor kept following me around and actually saw me.
And I was wearing all Chitin Armour.
So maybe it's specific to the NPC instead of the player character.
This topic is mislabled.
It does not have anything to do with whether an NPC can "see" you, and it does not have anything to do with what armor or clothing you are wearing.
The issue is whether they care or not. If they care that you just stole something then they will report it and you get a bounty. If not, then they just look the other way...
I know that below level 30 NPC's will commit crimes.
I do NOT know at what level NPC's will care if you steal and report you.
ALL citizens of Morrowind have a default of 50, so my guess is they need higher than that.
If this is the case, we would need some type of automated macro to go through and change them all. I am NOT going to go through the entire list of NPC's, again, and changing responsibility.
See post
http://morroblivion.com/imperial-guard-behavioral-issues
This topic is actually not mislabelled. I was just able to test (as promised) and confirm that yes, while wearing Morrowind clothing and in first person, NPCs do not notice me. Take off that Morrowind common robe, or switch to third person, and I become detected again. It's not absolute undetectability, but never passes the threshold where NPCs not in combat remain aware of you after you stop moving. Yet shop owners continue to follow me around, in spite of being, according to the stealth icon, unaware of my presence. I haven't tested a wide assortment of items, but can confirm that this is indeed a bug as reported by OP and commented on in first response. It's got nothing to do with NPC responsibility.
If what you say is true, and I don't doubt that it is since you have tested it, then this is WAY beyond any simple bug. It has to do with the way Oblivion deals with the missing body parts (wrists) caused by wearing most Morrowind clothing in first person.
Eloth is working on a complete clothing replacer, among other things, that will replace ALL Morrowind clothing with Oblivion "equivalents." That will be the only real way I see this bug being "fixed."
Either that, or just put on some armor.
I know there have been objects that caused missing hands in first person (in Oblivion) and I know there were fixes for them. I'm trying to remember what the object was. This may be a longshot, but maybe that fix could be applied to Morrowind clothing.
I think it was something like Mythic Dawn armor.
Was just testing and came to same conclusion as David. Only happens while in first person and using something that lacks a proper first person mesh. Most of the new Morrowind clothing lacks it. Chitin armor, which Soucy666 referenced, does have a first person mesh and bug does not occur (tested that specifically). Now that David mentioned it, actually, I do remember the same issue occurring with Mythic Dawn bound armor (as it wasn't intended to be used by player character, as you can't get the spell to summon it, it has no first person mesh), and seeing a fix for it on TESNexus. So not a Morroblivion bug, so much as an Oblivion engine limitation running up against an area that isn't quite finished with Morroblivion.
Figured out how to fix the mesh issues; I'm by no stretch a modeler but it's actually extremely easy to do with NifSkope. I'll try to get a package of updated meshes that will show in first person to David sometime this week.
That would be Fantastic! Thank you!
Replacement meshes that display in first person in attachment. I've noticed a few of them will turn invisible when seen from certain angles; not sure what exactly causes that, but fixes the issue with NPCs not noticing you whether the clothes are actually displaying or not.
re: Responsibility, I believe that 100 is the "default" responsibility for NPC's in Oblivion, causing them to automatically report crimes they see and giving you a bounty.
SpoonyBrad's fix will be included in v027.
I had a feeling that bug was related to morrowind clothes, I came across the issue about two years ago when I was fooling around with Morrowind clothes for a mod I was making.
Thanks for sorting out the reported bug SpoonyBrad, and for producing a fix and all.
Ps! I had a look at what you did in nifscope SpoonyBrad, that was a very elegant fix and it works really well.