Logical allocation of summoning spells

Please forgive me if this subject has come up before but it has always seemed odd to me that the arcane magic based Mages Guild mages summon daedra or the undead when daedra are the enemy of the empire and necromancy has been expelled from the Mages Guild. The use of soul gems, by Mages Guild mages also seems contrary in this case. I do not like the idea of soul gems, soul capture magic, anyway but this and the summoning appear to be inconsistent.

Mage Guild mages, those of the Arcane University, could summon creatures such as imps, trolls, spriggins, wolves, rats, minotaurs, along with other magical wild creatures. They could even summon such as heroes of some kind.

As for energies, arcane mages need to have another source to recharge devices and personal majika.

As for soul magic, for recharging, I suggest it be replaced with the theft, and use of, life energies and that only necromancer use it.

Daedric mages summon daedra and necromancers summon the undead!

Last edited by Maharg67 on 10 Aug 2016 - 07:43.

Such drastic changes would be

Such drastic changes would be unacceptable.
Summoning of daedra by mages is even used in particular quests.
Also mages are alike controlling daedra.

Unacceptably by who? I do not

Unacceptably by who? I do not think the changes would be at all unacceptable though they might be difficult to do in some cases. alysander, your use of the word 'unacceptable' puzzles me and comes across as fairly arrogant. I suggest that you take greater care with your language in future.

If my words are puzzling -

If my words are puzzling - sorry. I meant that very doubtful that such changes would occur in the mod.

alysander is correct, Skywind

alysander is correct, Skywind is intended to be a full recreation of Morrowind, as it was. A basic part of the game lore is not going to be changed just because you don't like Daedra, because that would be Unacceptable. And now for your lesson in lore: First off, Morrowind (big supprise) takes place in Morrowind, where daedra used to be worshiped heavily, and are still worshipped as some extent as the "Anticipations" of the tribunal. As such there is no reason why they would ban the summoning of daedra. Second, why do you think that daedra are the enemy of the empire? That is outright untrue. Daedra worship is entirely legal in the empire, and the summoning of daedra (conjuration) is one of the major schools taught by the Mages Guild. Soul gems, again, are used all across Tamriel, only black soul gems (for the souls of men and mer) are illegal (or at least highly restricted). And I also think its hilarious that you called alysander arrogant when you are the one trying to rewrite established lore for no reason. Next time make sure you know what your talking about before insisting that people make massive and unnecessary changes to something they have worked extremely hard on. Thank you :)

What Tyrobag said,

What Tyrobag said, essentially. Skywind is a recreation of Morrowind. It may not be 100% faithful in some cases, but any deviations tend to be stylistic or in the case of new quests/writings/NPCs as opposed to changed lore. Changed lore is a big no-no, and if Morrowind's lore doesn't make sense to you the way it is... well, that's not entirely surprising. Dark Elf culture is supposed to be esoteric, morbid, and sometimes completely alien. It was part of what made Morrowind so striking in comparison to Oblivion. But that doesn't mean it should be changed - quite the opposite, actually.

The Dunmer as a whole care little for the Empire and put much more focus on their ancestral traditions, which include worship of the Anticipations (the Good Daedra - Boethia, Azura, and Mephala, iirc), and accepts the House of Troubles (the Bad Daedra - Malacath, Sheogorath, Mehrunes Dagon, and Molag Bal) as enemies of the Dunmer, but whose hardships also serve as tests of mettle and endurance. They revere their ancestors and commune with them, and perform rites which have ghosts and skeletons of family members guarding family tombs, but despise necromancy that involves unscrupulously using the dead instead of contracts with beloved predecessors. So you're kind of right about necromancy, but you're wrong about the Daedra entirely.

But there are a few other reasons why you're wrong. First off, Necromancy was not commonly practiced in the Mages Guild in either Morrowind or Oblivion - there was a stigma against it, heavily so. I believe there's only one non-evil necromancer in the guild across both games. This is different in Skyrim (which is an entirely different organization, to boot), but in the case of Morrowind, the Mages Guild doesn't openly deal in necromancy due to outside pressure from the native Dunmer. And there's a considerable difference between Daedra summoning and Daedra worship; in the former case, the Daedra are used as tools, not served, so nothing particularly seditious is happening.

But most importantly, the Guild tends to consider itself enlightened and above the base stigmas of the common folk. Everyday citizens wouldn't trust a daedra summoner as far as they could throw them, it's true, but the Mages Guild always operated within its own sort of rules.

You're the one who comes off as arrogant here, to walk into as grand a project as this and dictate changes that champion your personal opinions over established lore.

I was dictating nothing but

I was dictating nothing but just putting forth my concerns related to a particular phase of history taking place with the Empire. The use of summoning the undead would be, of course, usually more controversial than that of summoning daedra; my concerns were focused on the fact that being invaded by daedra, that the general population might not consider it wise for the mages to summon them. In our world there have been changes made during war.

Also the fact that the Mages Guild would summon such as imps, trolls, would not stop player characters, or non Mages Guild NPCs, from gaining the ability to summon such. My concerns were about the impact of war on the guild and official arcane magic; I suspect that I did not communicate this well.

Also there is the practicality of being in a battle against daedra when you are not sure who to attack because your own side has summoned daedra. I have run into the problem more than once. In the midst of battle I would rather summon entities that I can clearly define from the enemy daedra with out having to summon the undead.

As for demanding change I expect nothing except to express my opinion.

I have played Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim (the latter two far more than the first) extensively over years, Oblivion especially. I have used many mods including summoning ones. I have enjoyed the experience greatly and have summoned many skeletons, scamps, and so forth to assist me in battle.

I also studied history at university, including military history, and know that changes do take place under pressure; lore is not everything, the ways of the past often change under current pressures. There should always be a practical, common sense, approach even to magic and that including changing historical conditions.

In World War One, in Australia, many towns had their names changed because they were too Germanic. In World War Two German Shepherds became known as Alsatians for the same reason. 'Lore' was changed!

I was not attacking Elder Scrolls lore. I was not demanding change but putting forth an opinion! I was trying to suggest a positive change to strengthen the idea of arcane magic evolving to become more distinct as a school of magic. Hence it summons its own kind of creatures.

I have gone over my original statement and there is nothing in it that speaks of demanding change. I am not responsible for your over reactions. As for my response to the first person, who responded to me (Alysander), it was to his use of language; of course he has his right to not agree with my ideas. His response showed that he understood that.

As for the use of soul stones, soul capture magic, etc. that is my personal bias founded on my spiritual beliefs and not something that I will change.

Everybody deserves to have their opinion. If you folks can not recognize that then all the worse for you.

As for the work being done here it is fantastic and though this is the first time I have joined I have been keeping an admiring eye on what has been going on for years. If I could help with skills, or large donations, I would but alas I have neither the proper skills or the money to spare. I am not a newbie to the games or even to changes taking place but have not had the time, energy, or skills to get involved. I am now learning to mod.

I suggest you be careful not to over react in future as too many in this gaming community have a bad reputation for doing so already and that reputation does you no good.

The first post might have

The first post might have been blunt, but your reaction to it was downright sanctimonious.

You have the right to your opinion, but you do need to understand that attempting to inject your own religious beliefs into an entirely unrelated project will rarely end well. You're talking about a video game and trying to change things that have been very clearly defined with unrelated anecdotes and false equivalencies. Morrowind is what it is, its culture is what it is, and its social situation is what it is. This does not change from Morrowind to Skywind. Skywind is not Vvardenfell post-Oblivion Crisis. It's Morrowind on a newer engine, so any changes you make to the factions are no longer faithful to the source material. I repeat - Morrowind's charm is largely in its strange, dark, and vivid setting, in all senses of the word. To change a facet of that would be to lose something fundamental about the game, and for no other reason than to satisfy a random person on the internet who has religious qualms about a standard game mechanic. If this bothers you so much, get or make a mod. I've seen better and more lore-friendly requests than this get turned down simply because they weren't in base Morrowind.

As for overreaction, no. You're the one being overly aggressive here. Watch your tone. If you want respect, show it.

I was not talking about

I was not talking about Morrowind where my ideas would not fit but the game of Oblivion where conditions have changed. The darkness of Morrowind is part and parcel of its quality. No changes there. I was speaking of changes in lore between the events of the games Morrowind and Oblivion. I did not clarify enough that all my attention was on the one game and not the past before that game.

When I spoke of my feelings about soul stones, soul magic, it was about them 'outside of the games'. Not religious but spiritual philosophical. It has nothing to do with changing the games. I get around it by cheating and using lots of Aylied stones.

As for over reaction, just go again to my original post. It was a set of suggestions only. I really did not expect the game to be changed. It was a discussion point and not a set of demands.

As for irrelevancies in my anecdotes etc. you will see real world influences in all of the Elder Scroll Games if you look hard enough.

As for being sanctimonious then all I can say is that if that is true there are quite a few sanctimonious people out there who have had ideas dealt with in the same way as my ideas were. Beware your sacred cows; I have had to give up many of my own. If you can't just discuss ideas as ideas then it is pointless posting here.

I am surprised that you could not just quietly point out why you do not think the changes could not be made with out judging me as some kind of invader of your territories; I did over react to the first response to my original post, I admit it, but it was more due to tiredness, and late night posting, than to any other factor.

You may be pleased to know I will be taking no future direct part in any of these projects or forums. I hope the projects go very well, are very successful, and everybody working on them gains much from being part of them. I will be donating monies to the project in some future time, when I can afford to do so, and will be keeping a 'distant eye' on your progress.

All true except Morrowind

All true except Morrowind takes place in Vvardenfell. It would be cool though if this recreation did eventually span the whole country!

Somebody messaged me

Somebody messaged me privately and talked me into staying. Dovahkiin11 it would be cool if somehow the whole of Tamriel could be fit into one big game. We can all dream!!!