Very nice touch with the lighting on the vest, Grumpy. 

Since you're playing with duality for this shrine, were you thinking about making one side more angelic and the other more crazy? I feel like there's a good potential to go full on Two-Face with this setup. I feel like it would exemplify the madgod a bit more strongly than just going full random mode and dump a pile of keys in one corner with chicken running around in another, but other people might feel differently. 

https://soundcloud.com/need-cheap-games/skywind-bards-the-wabbajack-original-song-by-jym-pagel

Nuff said. 

Silly question, but think Mania & Dementia could be portrayed in the reflection? For example if you look up you see bizarro world/Sheo trolling the player, but where you're standing all you see is a regular shrine? Just pitching ideas here since Sheogorath is always so weird, it would be fun to see if some of that strangeness can be translated into his domain. 

I agree with Taj, potentially that could look pretty awesome. For example the Sheogorath reflection could be pulling a stupid expression or something, whilst the one below is normal.

Lady of payne

Please can you stylize it more to Mania and Dementia? And remove glass - it looks too modern.

The interior looks so much worse it's hard to believe that was not the intent.  The mirrors look like reflective modern ceiling tiles and the lighting is a step backward.  The more offensive, but needed critique, is that the new Sheogorath statue is in some ways not as good as the original.  The original statue has a more open pose and better folds. It's curves looked far better under lighting and the pose correctly portrayed Sheogorath's character and was more dynamic. If original pose and more depth are added to the new statue, it will improve dramatically visually and in character.

Sasquatch

The more offensive, but needed critique, is that the new Sheogorath statue is in some ways not as good as the original.  The original statue has a more open pose and better folds. It's curves looked far better under lighting and the pose correctly portrayed Sheogorath's character and was more dynamic. If original pose and more depth are added to the new statue, it will improve dramatically visually and in character.

Yo, crazy...The original statues looked awful and i do mean awful. 

Sasquatch

"The interior looks so much worse it's hard to believe that was not the intent.  The mirrors look like reflective modern ceiling tiles and the lighting is a step backward.  The more offensive, but needed critique, is that the new Sheogorath statue is in some ways not as good as the original.  The original statue has a more open pose and better folds. It's curves looked far better under lighting and the pose correctly portrayed Sheogorath's character and was more dynamic. If original pose and more depth are added to the new statue, it will improve dramatically visually and in character."

[/quote]

Why are you the way you are? Can someone just post their work for once without you whining about something or wanting it changed? If we start changing every little thing to accommodate to your "critiques", this will never get done. Maybe if you actually contributed some significant work, people would be more willing to listen to you. Helpful or not, it's just annoying to see someone nitpick everything they do. Asking for people to change or redo their work needs to be approached carefully and with real reasons, not just because you don't like something or think the original is superior. In this case, yeah, sure, I can agree with you on the mirrors, but not when you do this ON EVERY POST.

Go ahead and defend yourself with logic and go on about how critiques are helpful or whatever you do. Call me a dick, but I think I'm speaking for a lot of the devs who are too nice to say anything. So just do us a favor and ease up please. I hate to be like this, but I don't want to see your "input" on every thread, it's obnoxious. 

Your probably speaking for the same devs who are too "nice" to give a decent critique that will assure a decent level of consistency and quality.  The only "direction" I've seen you give are gold stars and good jobs which doesn't help anyone when its given to everyone for anything, your word means nothing.  I'd be contributing given feedback with completed assets and without the threat of having my work redone.

Compare our feedback, Sasquatch.  Look at the content and how they are each generally received.  I don't just dole out gold stars - that isn't the point of constructive criticism.

You actually make a lot of good points in your critiques, but in their delivery they come across as condescending and demanding.

In giving criticism your goal should be to make your case in such a way as to have the person reach the same conclusion that a change should be made, or rebut with a reasonable affirmation of their original stance.

Lay out an alternative or a way to salvage work that has been done if possible.  And importantly - pick your battles.  Only offer feedback in areas where your argument is strong.  People will begin to value your feedback if it is consistently insightful.

You make good points as always.  I respect you for that and the fact that you are one of only three or four people to post on any of the work I did on the shrines, (even if I don't agree about the evil rugs).  I remember all the feedback I was given, what little there was, and appreciate it all, negative comments as much or more than the good.  My comment here was harsh, but with reason.  Most of my comments are not so much.  I don't take the time to sugar coat my comments, but I also only comment where my points have not been made, where they are needed, or when good points are made but not yet well received.  If the number of my comments is excessive it is because enough quality feedback is not being given.  If the they are harsh, it is only relative to the tameness of the rest.

Sasquatch

The more offensive, but needed critique, is that the new Sheogorath statue is in some ways not as good as the original.  The original statue has a more open pose and better folds. It's curves looked far better under lighting and the pose correctly portrayed Sheogorath's character and was more dynamic. If original pose and more depth are added to the new statue, it will improve dramatically visually and in character.

First of all, you make it sound like making those changes are easy and won't take tens of hours of hard work and somehow your criticism is necessary, it isn't and it's not. Second, what the hell are you even talking about
 the original statue isn't even subjectively better, peel off your nostalgia goggles before making anymore damaging criticisms under the defense that you're some sort of prophet who speaks the truth among a sea of lies and circle jerking.

[External image]

I was going by the picture and yes,  I'll stick with what I said.  The original statue has a more relaxed, open pose and deeper folds that catch the light better.  Part of what you've done here though is dishonest photography by changing the angle and lighting between photos.  The new model is without question improved and more detailed, but that was not my point.

My comment was:

"The more offensive, but needed critique, is that the new Sheogorath statue is in some ways not as good as the original."

And then I listed the reasons, all of which are valid.  So heres another image:

[External image]

If I had to choose #1 or #2.  Id say, like I did, the detail of #2 but the depth and pose of #1.  Much of the difference is of course the lighting, but there were nothing but positive comments in here except for LadyPayne which had a downvote.  That's more offensive than anything I've posted here.

The statue wont be redone, case closed about that.

[External image]

You should use such wits to intelligently decipher the meaning of my post.

Alright, I've read through all of that, and I can say two things here. Or at least I was planning to, ended up with five things to say.

First, feedback is not done right in the project, often more hindering than helping, especially when coming from people who are not in charge. You surely don't know Sasquatch, that a lot of modelling is controlled via the chat or Skype by people responsible. And it's most of the time not sugar coated. Smartinius, Scruples and many other modellers I've worked with can probably tell you that.
 

Secondly, we have a process here. Everything starts with an idea for how to modernize something, then that idea is turned into concept art, then it's modelled based on the concept art, and then it's put in the game. First two steps is really when you can make major changes, beyond that point it's piles up workload big time. Painting a concept from ground up takes 4 - 6 hours (for me at least). Making a model takes weeks of working 4 - 6 hours a day on it. Making changes at that point is nothing but trouble. Of course, we want to make Skywind as good as we can, but we also want to get it done. Changing a good model after it's finished to make it better is out of the question. We don't want to end up like Tamriel Rebuilt, 10 years in development and not even 40% done. Just whenever you give feedback take the workload into account. Spending months debating the shade of purple on the scarf of the Imperial Mage outfit is really not helping.

Third point I want to raise is the nature of constructive criticism. You don't have to be sweet and polite to be constructive, these are two completely different things. Constructive criticism takes much more effort, but it's the only really helpful one. Let me explain the difference.

• "If you did this and that, it would look much better, for this, and this reason." - constructive criticism
• "This looks awful" - not constructive criticism
• "This looks awful because of this and that" - a bit better, but still not constructive criticism

If you used the first pattern more often people would take more kindly to your suggestions, and it's perfectly possible to be brutally honest in those.
 

Now, speaking of brutally honest, we're getting to the point number four.
I love the idea with mirrors, but I'm afraid something this exquisite and unique requires much more thinking than a simplistic square grid. It does seem like a piece of skyscraper teleported into the ceiling of his shrine. As much "Sheogorath" as it sounds, I still don't think it's the best way to go about it. At least putting them on the ceilling as a multitude of elliptic shaped mirrors, in frames of Daedric style would already make them fit in much better. Straight lines that meet each other at a square angle is definetly the last thing that should be present in warped and chaotic Daedric ruins.

And the fifth point is that I very often agree with your points Sasquatch, it's just the way you deliver them that makes people so hostile. Some respect for their hard work is in place, even if you think the work itself is bad. It's very, very far from sugarcoating.

 

"As much "Sheogorath" as it sounds, I still don't think it's the best way to go about it. At least putting them on the ceilling as a multitude of elliptic shaped mirrors, in frames of Daedric style would already make them fit in much better."

Yeah, good point.

You can go ahead and paint that up if you want, St. Llukar :D

Dragomir

We don't want to end up like Tamriel Rebuilt, 10 years in development and not even 40% done. Just whenever you give feedback take the workload into account. Spending months debating the shade of purple on the scarf of the Imperial Mage outfit is really not helping.

[External image]

Tamriel Rebuilt is all newly created content, but they have mostly used the original models and textures.  The mod has a high level of quality and consistency because they have redone so much in the past.  If they had planned better and had more early feedback maybe that could have been avoided.  Maybe if a Morrowind mod is made for Skywind it will take as long as TR in total.

You will find that this is my most hostile complaint and I think it is for good reason.  The ceiling should only be considered as a bad joke which is why I didn't provide a comment more than I did.  Most of my crits include my complaints, my reasoning, how I think they should change, often with links included.  Truth be told I haven't noticed anyone who so consistently gives such honest, thorough feedback in the forums as myself.  I didnt include that here because I don't assume this interior is meant to be taken seriously.  

If you want my thoughts on Sheogorath shrines, this is part of a much larger discussion.

Daedric theme discussion:

https://tesrenewal.com/forums/skyrim/skywind-development-forums/landscaping-and-level-design/8666

Truth be told I haven't noticed anyone who so consistently gives such honest, thorough feedback in the forums as myself.

...seriously man? It's very hard to take you seriously when you have your head so far up your own ass you literally say your opinion is above all others. 

Landscapers and clutterers are artists too - how about giving them some tips on how to develop their idea to their fullest extent rather than put them down and say one particular element is total crap? Instead of saying 'waah statue' or 'waah mirrors' why don't you try and come up with a way to make them fit rather than provide constant negative reinforcement? 

On the topic;

Let's extrapolate some key points that relate to the landscaping of the shrines rather than stuff relating to NPCs/events that would occur in it; 

Duality with mania and dementia

Overall themes of madness, which can be explored with optical illusions and/or fantastical objects set within his shrine

Psychedelic imagery, like penroze steps

Shivering Isles references

So far, Grumpy is incorporating those elements. There is a passage cited in the thread where lore explains that the greatest sin for Sheogorath is normality, and that he would attract worship in very unorthodox manners - aspires free thinking rather than harsh doctrine. Perhaps one half of his shrine could be overrun with vegetation and life, and the other with a more angular penroze-steps layout? My thinking here is right-brain/left-brain imagery as Sheogorath's strongest visual theme lies in duality. 

Tajnarasha

...seriously man? It's very hard to take you seriously when you have your head so far up your own ass you literally say your opinion is above all others.

firewolx

Sheogorath is the Daedric Prince of Madness. I will need some more ideas for this one. 

• Has a 'mania' side and a 'dementia' side. Half of the interiors are colourful and fantastic, the other half is horrific and gray. 
• Unnecessary and crazy things, think forks, cheese, brooms and cabbages. 
• Crazy followers
• Dinner party in one of the interiors?
• Instead of summoning a Dremora lord when you pick a cursed item from the altar, something silly can happen. 

Sasquatch

post #1

I'm planning to make Sheogorath shines not as childish as they might have been by making them the Morrowind version of a Dionysian cult.  So sex excess, revelry, drug use and drinking - altered states of consciousness.  All this is left at the door, the censars break the spell of madness when you leave, but inside its a trip.  I've shown this by the items I've placed inside but also via the atmosphere.  Bright colors whispy shadows and lights flowing around and weird particles of light etc.  I'd like to add sounds like ghostly laughter or other unreal sounds to flesh it out.  Sure it could be goofy like chickens running around and people wearing strange clothes or being naked, but I'd like it to be comically mature (animal house?).

post #2

I don't think it should be a love show, more "recklessly uninhibited; unrestrained; undisciplined; frenzied; orgiastic."  All the Sheogorath interiors should showcase extreme behavior.  Also, as a general observation, why are the most offensive, irrelevant, stupid posts getting the most upvotes.  The karmic irony hasnt been lost on me.

post #3

After reading your comment I realized that I was making a whole lot of assumptions about Sheograth so I reviewed what is posted on UESP: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Sheogorath#Cultural_Madness

Sheogorath strikes me as a trickster character who both tests and exorcizes psychic weaknesses and after the following notes I think lore supports my interpretation of Sheogorath very strongly.  Sheogorath was once the Prince of Order but is now Prince of Madness (chaos) which mirrors Apollonian and Dionysian themes i previously mentioned:

• The Blessings of Sheogorath, a prayer amongst Sheogorath worshippers, asserts that without Sheogorath, "all Thought would be linear and all Feeling would be fleeting".
• They praise him because it is Sheogorath "who tricks us when we are foolish, punishes us when we are wrong, tortures us when we are unmindful, and loves us in our imperfection".

"The Chimer revered Sheogorath in their ancient ancestral worship.^[13][22] However, when the Tribunal Temple took power in Morrowind, Sheogorath, as well as Mehrunes Dagon, Malacath, and Molag Bal, became known as one of the "Four Corners of the House of Troubles" to the Dunmer. He is said to have rebelled against the Tribunal, and this is why worship of Sheogorath became punishable by death.^{[22][nb 6]} Nevertheless, Vivec apparently made an agreement with Sheogorath to protect his people from madness, an agreement the Dunmer must occasionally renew by performing the Pilgrimages of the Four Corners. Sheogorath's shrines were abandoned, but many have remained standing into modern times.^[23] Legends say Daedra Lords such as Sheogorath built the great shrines themselves because mortals could not build anything grand enough to suit them.^[7]" -uesp

• Dunmer believe Sheogorath tests them for psychological weakness.
• Sheogorath is one of the many prominent Daedric Princes in Khajiiti culture.^[13] To them, he is "Sheggorath", the Skooma Cat (for nothing is madder than a cat on skooma).^[26]

Is Sheogorath worship legal atm?  Are the Shrines active or abandoned?  Are pilgrimages still being made to these shrines and if so what activity is taking place there?  I also do not think his realm only relates to schizophrenics and psychopaths.  It is madness as a general term and, in lore, it is a kind of madness one that can effect anyone.

The current Sheogorath shrines already feature mind altering potions on the alters as one of the few ways they are differentiated from the other daedric shrines.  For that reason I think it is suitable to continue cluttering other shrines with obj of similar theme.  To avoid confusion with the Sanguin's daedric realm as mentioned by Smitehammer, sexually charged themes should be avoided in favor of crazier antics.

If the shrines are still active I think it would be great to have pilgrims participating in incredibly outrageous antics, downing all manner of mind altering substances and worshiping Sheogorath in an effort to rid themselves of lingering madness in a cult-like spectacle.   This would be much more fun than shrines full of muttering confused people or immediately hostile NPC.  For example in one shrine we could have seating areas with NPCs huddled around and very paranoid or crying while the rest is a party and a couple people who simply run around and screaming punching people at random but eliciting no response.  Some of that would require changing the way AI initially reacts to the player, but it'd be SO much more interesting!

Smitehammer

post #1

You're describing Sanguine more than Sheogorath.  Hedonism and drugs aren't Sheo's sphere, madness is.  The mentally deranged.  Psychopaths, schizophrenics and people with dementia, OCD or PTSD.

post #2

Sheogorath protects the insane at his shrines.  He finds their madness and unique outlooks on life endearing.  The greatest sin in Sheogorath's eyes is to be boring.  'Normal' is boring.  

Think of the folks who lived in Shivering Isles - these are the types of characters that would be found at his shrines, for Sheogorath would draw them to him.  

The orc that thinks he is a Khajiit is a perfect example.  

Others, fleshed out and not inmediately attacking the player could include a paranoid man who thinks the emperor himself  is using telekinesis to spy on him, a pyromaniac who keeps lighting his fingers on fire, a woman raising an ash-yam as a baby, a 'knight' weilding a soup spoon and wearing a bowl on his head as a helmet, two different guys SURE they are actually Vivec and arguing over which one is the real Vivec, a woman obsessed with calendars, someone who is tormented by having the 'Cliffracer Fly' song stuck in his head for eternity, an Argonian that only ever says 'Ribbit', a refined high-born lady convinced that a boorish and lewd sot of a man named Wimbledorf lives in her finger.

Drakonman
he has a whole region in Morrowind named after him. What Sheogorath needs is trickery. Make it look like one thing but its really something else. Maybe the shrine should include some optical illusions around it. Confuse the player with it instead of making them think "oh this is ment to be insanity" make the player feel the insanity. 


Oblivion really was the sheogorath game. Look at his shrine in oblivion and even his artifacts.   For example there is a staff you cant get rid of unless someone else takes it willingly, a scamp always follows the person who currently possess the staff. Sheo gets Laughs from things like that. Look at the wabbajack it turns animals into other animals and makes it rain cats and dogs!   

Sheogorath is childish but he also has a devilish side to him. Even in elder scrolls online they state That you were lucky for meeting sheogorath and you didn't come back disfigured, with a tail or even inside out. He has a really REALLY twisted humor to him.

MC ESCHER PIC (penrose steps/impossible stairs/mirrored imagery)

^ just for an idea of insanity...

I would LOVE to commit all my spare time working on the shrine area for Sheogorath. He is my favorite lore character in the entire series. Even his personality fit with mine, or at least anyone else who thinks its funny to cause chaos and confusion. Getting a laugh from other misfortune and confusion.

____________________________

The only unique contribution you have made to this discussion is the adding of plants.

Noone from this thread, besides Smitehammer and myself, were involved in this conversion and as far as I can tell nothing of significance has been added that wasnt already posted.

Sasquatch

  Truth be told I haven't noticed anyone who so consistently gives such honest, thorough feedback in the forums as myself.  I didnt include that here because I don't assume this interior is meant to be taken seriously.  

Sir, you have the social skills of a walrus...

or maybe a Sasquatch, either way I'm the right.

Sasquatch

or maybe a Sasquatch, either way I'm the right.

Oh, Sasquatch believe what you want...The fact is none of us care if you think your right. [External image]

Shushine

Sasquatch

or maybe a Sasquatch, either way I'm the right.

 

Oh, Sasquatch believe what you want...The fact is none of us care if you think your right. [External image]

Well, I can give my response to this entire thread in summary by saying I don't think this mod will do itself any favors by b#tardizing misappropriated content.

@Sasquatch:

Lets try something interesting, i want you to clutter this dungeon, do whatever you want with it, and we will see if you are right. Deal?

eloth

Lets try something interesting, i want you to clutter this dungeon, do whatever you want with it, and we will see if you are right. Deal?

Tbh, I'd love if he did that...Then we'd actually get something in game rather than just a bunch of ideas

This isn't my claim, it's GrumpyCat's.  I gave my suggestion and its all there for him to read with the rest.

Sasquatch

This isn't my, claim it's GrumpyCat's.  I gave my suggestion and its all there for him to read with the rest.

Well guess what Sasquatch Im pleased to announce that you just won the SUPER ULTRA AMAZING SKYWIND CLUTTERING POWERBALL LOTTERY! Now why don't you come down here and claim your prize! [External image]

Sasquatch

This isn't my claim, it's GrumpyCat's.  I gave my suggestion and its all there for him to read with the rest.

I'm sure GrumpyCat won't mind.

@sasquatch:

Grumpy is gone for 3 months, and he is happy to hand this over to someone else.

I did have an idea for this, to showcase mania and dementia in a more subtle and disorienting fashion.

One ruin, looking from the outside, with two entrances.  The entrances lead to two slightly different versions of the same ruin, one with the more violently minded worshippers of dementia (and uttered appropriately) and the other leading to a mania side with some of the more 'harmless' off-kilter crazies.  The two could be distinguished by lighting, decor, and the inhabitants.

Trying to exit through the door you come in just takes you through the 'other' door back into the same ruin instance you are currently in, while exiting through the door you didn't come in actually takes you outside.

Very easy to implement.  It would just require decorating the 'same interior' twice.

I like this last suggestion.  My only addition would be that there could be multiple interiors connected from the inside.  One entrance, two interiors, two exits.  The interiors could be connected by an interior door in the main shrine and lead to the other.  Both exits would have door markers at the original entrance.  The only problem with this is entering would always be in one version or the other so the entry chamber might best be designed in a more neutral theme.  This idea could potentially be extended to a mania and dementia themed labyrinthine puzzle (if lore supports such a thing).  While I like Smitehammer's idea I think it would work best in the fairly basic interiors and not done across the board.  

An alternative could be a red/blue potion at the foot of shrine or given by Sheogorath worshipers that would transport the user to another interior space, either mania or dementia.  The mania/ dementia world space would connect at the same places as original interior yet, reentering, the interior would be unchanged.  This would resolve the multiple entrance problem, not require a more artificial teleportation via door method and would introduce so many possibilities for new puzzles and quest.  If possible, I assume it would require some scripting.  The main issue I see with introducing multiple interiors is how to manage inconsistencies between duplicate NPCs.

Some new ideas.

I assumed that Sheo can play not only humans mind but animals too. As extravagant he enslaved some glowworms for lighting enviro around him. On dementia side they fly slow and quite straight on Mania site they will fly fast and chaotic. Some tiny dynamic lights from glowworms can cause some cool light reflecting effects in the mirror. Sheo statue will be a bit higher on the platform than vanilla with braziers much lower around him.

The same mirror will depicting Mania and dementia itself. Left site in very good condition, right site is in poor condition. Dementia site could be even damaged and slanting compare to the mania site. Shattered mirror around him will be symbolization of his shattered mind.

The whole shrine will be under Sheo influence. Mania site will cause that game or player will be 30-40% faster and maybe rendering will be a bit brighter with higher contrast (just add some activator). Dementia site will be 30-40% slower and rendering will be 30-40% darker/dull and 30-40% slower. On mania site will be purple lights (not too flashy) and on dementia site lights will be greenish (like in grumpy concept). Entering Sheo shrine u will enter in his mind too.

Mania site could be filled with mess (randomly scattered random items) and Dementia filled with "emptiness" just some lihgts and webs here and there.

----------------------------

When u pick sht from Sheo shrine u could be attack by cheeese! Just flooted with cheese appearing above u and then disappearing a couple minutes after.

----------------------------

"Dinner party in one of the interiors" Some companions could make picnic a front of Sheo. Instead of normal food they will have only uneatable things like chitin armor parts, muck, ebony ore etc.

----------------------------

It would be good if every companion here will have unique mental disorder. I don't know many but maybe someone will write some interesting dialogues.

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To makes things more weird, every time whatever u do, u will see the same situation, how u will be here first time here (the same npc even if u kill them, the same assets even if u take them, the same behaviors of companions even if u talk them before). Only Sheo will be different (he will react due to your previous actions, because he is only one who is not affected)