Legality and dealing with Zenimax/Bethesda

Yuh, if I recall the issues were with using the Morrowind mesh/textures, bit this time we haven't used any of it, and we've hand created it.

well, 70% of textures now is non bethesda, the goal is 100% ownmade textures, but if the issue also covers meshes, which is 99% bethesda, we are in trouble.

If I recall we've converted Morroblivion's stuff to Skyrim, not Morrowind. And Morroblivion already removed all of the Morrowind stuf and replaced itf. Bethesda only gives a damn about the Morrowind stuff due to Zenimax.


I could be wrong though =p

I was almost certain it was ONLY a problem with textures.  Though that FAQ seems to indicate that there was at least a problem with one or two meshes.

Yeah, almost all of our meshes are good old Morrowind originals, though we have altered a few of them.  I'd guess we are using about 95% originals though, not quite 99%.

 We definitely have not removed ALL of the Morrowind stuff, but if Bethesda came knocking and said, hey we have a few meshes we can't have you use, then it hopefully wouldn't be to hard to appease them and make a few new ones.

So I know I have already brought this up, but now seems a better time than ever.

Phitt has MANY wonderful meshes that are very close to the original Morrowind ones with more detail, and are open to us using!  Here is a link to his mod.  If I remember correctly, we are allowed to port them to Skyrim as long we give credit.  It talks about that in the readme that comes with the mod.

So is there ANYONE here that has 3dsmax and would like to use our converter to make them work in Skyrim?

you dont need 3dsmax, just use the nifconverter, it can convert from morrowind to skyrim, almost sure

it can convert from oblivion to skyrim also :)

Neat, I may monkey around with the converter.

Hm, do I need 3DS 2012 32 bit? I have 64 bit, I don't think I can run 32 bit programs on a 64 bit OS. I may actually try converting that Oblivion mod you linked.

When I tried to use the nif converter, it doesn't do anything, I can't select any file paths or anything. Yes, I have visual c++ w/e =p

have you downloaded the lastest nifutils?

https://github.com/skyfox69/NifUtils/downloads

Mehh,

You can run 32bit programs on 64bit OS`s and systems,because the OS [Win7 64 pro for example] is backwardly compatable with 32bit stuff.

I run a multboot system and have 32bit and 64bit progs on both OS`s.

Oh god, I remember when Alex and Sorrow offered to teach me this stuff, but noooooo I said I wanted to finish up the Argonian females first. Argh! Oh well, I'll try to somehow figure out how to use this Cifconverter by tonight. I got it working at least lols.

Okay, I'm not sure if I did it right, but I used Niftextures to convert the mod that was listed above. I think almost everything was converted. Here is the log of what wasn't converted. http://www.filedropper.com/log I would upload it, but x.x it's kinda big, and takes really long, and I'd rather not upload something that isn't correct and ya know, waste time...

http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/19266/#content

From what i read most of the graphic Morrowing vanilla stuff has been replaced by high def version made by the community that would meet today's HD requirements. Can you just use those if the authors allow it ?

He has a lot of mods that try and alter Morrowind up to 4k textures and stuff. Here is the link:  btb2.free.fr/morrowind.html . Maybe you will find useful things.

http://www.ziddu.com/download/20431303/sheogradskyrim.rar.html

Here is the Sheograd texture/meshes converted for Skyrim, can ya test them out and see if they work?

Give me a few minutes.....

Edit:  Make that a lot of minutes........ 

Edit2:  Hmm, all download, but Steam doesn't seem to be liking me at the moment.  Of course no Steam means no CK or Skyrim either.  Anyone else want to see if they work instead?

malgarroth

Well until I read the Morroblivion FAQ, I had always been under the impression that it was textures.

I don't think Bethesda are fool enough to not know that Morroblivion.com exists and that Morroblivion is very playable. They're just not able to promote it or host it on any of their sites or anything.

Hi there. Matt from from Bethesda here. We're definitely aware of the project. Someone pointed me to this thread so I thought I'd clarify for you guys.

The policy has always been that you cannot take assets from one of our games and put it in another game... even if that game is one of ours (Morrowind to Oblivion, Fallout 3 to Fallout: New Vegas, etc). Assets could be sound files, meshes, textures, etc. As such, we've closed down discussion in our official forums in the past.

If you're creating assets "inspired" by Morrowind (or another game), that's generally okay.

If you're using existing meshes as placeholders, it's not something that could be discussed in our forums.

Thanks

Hi Matt, thanks for dropping by and clearifying the issues. We will of course gradually replace all meshes and textures to avoid conflicts.

How spooky is it that my post got responded to by the PR! Why me?! But hm, the mesh and textures can be remade. The sound effects can be remade to actually sound better. But the voices, ugh...

http://morroblivion.com/forums/morroblivion/mods/1648 Well there is a thread on a project that seeks to add voiced dialog to Morrowind.

I'd assume Morrowind was mostly written dialog, with specks of voice acting here and there, correct? (Sorry, never played the game, which is why I'm interested in this project.)

We could start basic. Just replace all the spoken dialog that already exists with spoken dialog. If we wanted to voice more lines later, we could do that, but I don't think it's as high of a priority.

Plus, with as many people as you have interested in helping with the project, I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to round up a bunch of people to do a handful of lines a piece, reducing the workload a good bit. You'd just have to break up lines for the "voice actors".

The first few npcs in Morrowind have voiced dialog, but after that, everyone mainly has voiced greets and just text. This isn't a big deal for Skywind. But Oblivirim on the otherhand will be difficult.

Why Mehh? Isn't there a way to export from oblivion to skyrim, cause oblivion was fully voiced if i remember correctly... ?

hangman04

Why Mehh? Isn't there a way to export from oblivion to skyrim, cause oblivion was fully voiced if i remember correctly... ?

Do you mean Oblivion itself, or the Morrowind/Oblivion project? Because if you mean Morrowind itself, well...

gstaffBethesda

The policy has always been that you cannot take assets from one of our games and put it in another game... even if that game is one of ours (Morrowind to Oblivion, Fallout 3 to Fallout: New Vegas, etc). Assets could be sound files, meshes, textures, etc. As such, we've closed down discussion in our official forums in the past.

I don't understand these guys, why are they so cocky about these projects, i mean, you need to have both TES3 and TES 5,or TES4 and 5, for Skywind/Skyblivion, to run, and i know, you could easily pirate these games, but i am sure not all of poeple are like that,and don't get, why you can't take assets from one game and put it on another of their games, and it's not like you guys are making any profit of it, it's just silly if you ask me.

So to play SkyWind you need both games right...? But do Bethesda realize this?
Because it seems like there would obvisously be a problem if you basically stole their creations and gave it away for free. But this is not whats going on.

The only problem I see here, and what bethesda might be concerned with, is that I can still find links to morrowind assets such as models/textures in compressed files.

Maybe I'm missing something, but isn't there a way to create an program that would simply locate your morrowind data folder and move all needed files to skyrim/oblivion? You wouldn't need registry checks or anything. It would simply be just copying files on your harddrive. Is this process legal?

Also, what is the reason we have these data files hosted here in the first place? Is it because the meshes themselves don't work correctly on the newer engines and required modification?

 they don't mind the recreation of the assests just not direct ports,  they also don't mind modifiying there assests and rerealesing them so long as it is for the same game that the said assets originated from

And Frankly,  it doesnt matter  what the said mod requires the fact is that it is illegal to use any of theire assets on another game, more speciifcally, the fact that they have not taken anymore action then they have  shows a hell of a lot more leniancy then other companes would, they could  easily send a take down notice (as the materials used in these games are under copyright and we are violating their  terms of use with this project) or a  court ordered cease and desist. 

Well, that was my point. If we can move away from distributing actual content from previous games, it would be alot more corporate friendly.

If there are no materials in question, there can never be any legal issues.

Obviously we would just need someone who can make an installer/copy tool that does what we want it to.

I like that idea of creating an installer to extract assets from Morrowind/Oblivion installations, i think that would suffice in terms of porting issues.

this will not work so easily, remember the meshes have to be batch converted also, to work in skyrim.

ahhh yea you are right...... forgot about that bit haha.

@eloth

Are you talking about the texture paths in the nifs themselves? Yes I forgot about this, its been awhile.

You mentioned batch converting though, is there a way to automate the conversion process or was it all done by hand?

not only the texture paths, but the whole structure of the meshes, like normals, nodes, shader properties etc etc etc, if you compare morrowind meshes against skywind meshes, you will see they are totally different

The conversion tool we use(nifconvert) only converts one mesh at a time, and you have to use the other tool chunkmerge to get collision working. So if the author of nifconvert can fix batch conversion, and collision in one tool, then it can be possible.

So I guess the Sheograd thing I posted are worthless? I used this tool http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/19266

Although I've played around with nifskope in the past, I've never tried using a mesh from one bethesda game into another.

I'm assuming nifskope has an export feature to do this. Did you have to manually convert every model in the game?

Edit: thanks for the info, I need to do some research. There are alot of tools out there and plenty of sourcecode. Theres has to be someone willing to assist us. I'll try and contact a few ppl.

Its good to ask questions, no worries there :)

NifSkope is manual i believe, i found this though, could help:

1) Install Python 2.6
2) Install PyFFI
3) Create a folder to hold meshes you want to convert
4) In that folder, create a shortcut such as the one below:

Name:
Convert to static

Target:
C:\Python26\python.exe "C:\Python26\Scripts\niftoaster.py" modify_collisiontype --prefix="static" -a static "C:\meshes"

Start In:
C:\Python26

Change both of the "C:\Python26\" to the path on your computer of wherever you installed Python 2.6. Change "C:\meshes" to wherever you created the folder to hold NIFs you want to convert.

6) Copy any folder of nifs you want into this conversion folder.
7) Run the shortcut you created.

It'll change all nifs to the collision type you desire, and add the prefix in front of the new files. If you need any more help, you can ask here. Using this I was able to convert all ingredients in the game to statics, plus about fifty downloaded nifs, add them to the Construction Set, and test them ingame in under an hour.

Also, it sould seem a NifTools 2 is being developed that will support batch processing.

the sheogorad stuff is not pointless, need to convert manually one by one yes, but it will not take more than a weeks job max. And the tool you posted is a good tool for speeding up the conversion process, its a part of the conversion process so to speak.

So the converted stuff isn't useless? Shadow was supposed to test it, but his steam kinda died on him. xD

nope, not useless, you saved many hours of work doing that. Next phase will be to run them trough nifconvert one by one.

Oh kewl, then the 30 minutes it took to upload wasn't in vain! Also, who's going to run the files through nifconvert? I can't get that damn program to work for me for some odd reason, and the instructions are vague.

Hi all

Im new here, but i'd like to be involved in development in any way i can. I am something of a noob when it comes to making mods, but I know how to use Creation Kit, etc. 
But I had an idea. Why not distribute the mod through steam as a full package, kinda of like how the old Half Life mods were downloadable through the old steam portal, and only allow people who already own oblivion or morrowind to download the mods for skyrim? So basically, in order to play new morrowind, must own old morrowind. They're not so expensive anyways, cheaper even than the dawngaurd expansions, and I can't see Zenimax/Bethesda hating if we let em make their money.

http://morroblivion.com/forums/conversion-to-skyrim/conversion-to-skyrim/2483 

You could help with NPC conversion and then with quests.

gstaffBethesda

Hi there. Matt from from Bethesda here. We're definitely aware of the project. Someone pointed me to this thread so I thought I'd clarify for you guys.

The policy has always been that you cannot take assets from one of our games and put it in another game... even if that game is one of ours (Morrowind to Oblivion, Fallout 3 to Fallout: New Vegas, etc). Assets could be sound files, meshes, textures, etc. As such, we've closed down discussion in our official forums in the past.

If you're creating assets "inspired" by Morrowind (or another game), that's generally okay.

If you're using existing meshes as placeholders, it's not something that could be discussed in our forums.

Thanks

 

The keyword gentlemen, and it may be a legality hint dropped by matt from bethesda, is "inspired" in quotes.
I think therefore that if you use the morrowind meshes as a model and they come out "very" "similar" they are "inspired".
"If you catch" "my drift" ;) ;) ;) ;)

From what i know meshes represent the poligonal structure of objects. And from what i remember most objects in Morrowind have low poligon meshes compared to their Skyrim counterparts. The exception might be buildings were due to the dimentions of the object you don't need a highly poligonal meshe. The point being that original meshes would have to be modified anyway to have a higher quality so they are not 100% Morrowind, just inspired. But for buildings this might be another issue.

Btw how are you guys converting the lanscape (I mean the general terrain shape)?

Using Chuvakin, the Oblivion to Skyrim .esm converter.

Yep Seventhlight.  It is quite possible to make brand new models that look almost identical to the old ones.  These would be perfectly fine to use, and it would be quite evident that they were not simply copied and modified because the polygon structure would still be different.  This is the direction I hope we take with the mesh replacer, but with some more added detail to bring the models up to the bar that Skyrim set.

It only takes one polygon or point[s] movement in any mesh and it is then different,same with textures,any hue/color etc change makes it a new texture.

They would proberly look the same,but they would not be the originals.

ironman12345

It only takes one polygon or point[s] movement in any mesh and it is then different,same with textures,any hue/color etc change makes it a new texture.

They would proberly look the same,but they would not be the originals.

 

Yep thats what I mean`t Mehh,and it`s the same with text dialogue,change just one word and the quest is different.?

 In fact imo,any texture/mesh/sound [with audio editing of pitch,modulation etc]/music by changing like sound,everything can be changed with very minor tweaks these days.

To prove it,no video or sound file can be used in evidence in court,because it is too easy to edit them.

Might seem over the top,but true never the less,and I do not think that anyone is going to check every file anyway.LOL.:)

I've already said this before somewhere, but that simply does not work.  You are also not allowed to modify existing files.  They must be created from scratch.  Moving some polygons on an original mesh is still just as illegal as using an unmodified version unfortunately.  :(

Though Ironman you are right when you say they probably won't check everything.  We could probably get away with a few meshes that are only modified slightly.  But I wouldn't try doing that with too many of them.

Of course none of this really matters unless we really want to create a legal version that we could post on the Nexus.  If we are still content with underground, I guess we can do whatever we want anyway.  :)