The importance of player freedom

When playing a TES game, I impose some constraints on myself, but I want to be able to break my own rules whenever I want. For example, I do not fast-travel but maybe, very rarely I will use it for some reason.

Same for quest objectives. I don't want to be hand-guided ? I don't select the quest in Skyrim, so the quest marker don't appear in the compass (or I hide the compass). And sometime, I want some help, I just display the marker.

So as you mentioned, I want to be able to choose what I do.

Regarding integration of games, here's my take on this (I might not speak for everyone working on the project).

1/ when starting a new game, it will ask you where you want to start (Machine already uploaded a very beta version of this) -- I suppose some version of that will end up in our basic package.

2/ Travel between games will be based on optional esp files. So that those who want a full a-new-elder-scrolls-takes-me-back-in-time kind of thing can have it. I guess we will also have a very simple travel mod in one of the ports of Skyrim and one of the ports Vvardenfell. Heck if no one's doing it, I'll do it myself ;) (because I could care less for the  whole time travel, to be honest).

3/ I don't think we will block use of shouts on Vvardenfell, once again it is the player's role to put some constraint on himself. Now when you start in Vvardenfell and never learn any dragon shout, then you have nothing to shout, right ? ;)

4/ Items looted, bought or crafted in Skyrim will be usable in Vvardenfell and vice versa.

Basically:

• everything you can do in Skyrim you would be able to do it in Vvardenfell.
• everything you can do in Vvardenfell you would be able to do it in Skyrim, except for things really specific to Morrowind, like Divine Intervention.
• The gameplay mechanics will be Skyrim's ones (for exemple, we will not restore skills, we will adapt the quests and such to Skyrim's ones)

 

Now that will be the default package. Anyone is entitled to create and propose optional esp files to play the game they want !

I agree I like the infinite freedom of the elder scrolls The only limitaions are the ones I put on myself. I personally play with 4x intense master difficulty on. And I only fast travel to settlements. so let's keep the game links simple and use either chim (the force Tiber Septim used to turn the jungles of cyrodiil into... middle earth. Or use an elder scroll. I was gonna make a in depth time travel mod for Vvardenfel but I was mainly working on cyrodiil now. I think we should have multple esp's for alternate starts ( esp1: you have to make a new character, esp2: elder scroll, esp3: Chim, esp4 My idea of a 4E morrowind adventure with time travel spell).

Then it hit me I want to ride a dragon over the red mountain... umm maybe after the ending of the main quest line. Still the being able to travel between games is a must for me well not a MUST, must but a... I'm starting to sound crazy aren't I.

Still I want to do anything in morrowind and skyrim. not limited to you can only use these spells, powers, shouts, ect in skyrim and these one are reserved for morrowind. I can already see someone breaking the game with this, like turning dagoth into a chicken, but still.

I disagree. too much freedom removes the importance of choice and consequence.

I see what you mean. the other day my sister was playing skyrim on my pc and she nearly killed Vilja then 5 seconds later vilja said: oh I'm so glad your helping me find those ingredients". 0_o ( to much freedom and no consequence)

I was saying that You should be able to go anywhere you want, anyway you want. like in the real game morrowind i was just saying let's add to that. freedom is what make the elder scrolls the elder scrolls you can go anywhere in the world, do anything in the world, fight anyone in the world.  It's awesome who are we to tell the player that they can't use their skyrim daedric bow that dose  17 billion damage to destroy everything they see.

Personally when I see azura at the end of the game I want to shout her apart. She knew that the dunmer on Vvardenfell were gonna die if vivec lost his power and couldn't hold up the ministry of trust( if she didn't know she should have known) and yet she still had the nevarine indirectly kill all those people! (Imo) Did azura and the nevarine really help anybody. Everyone died in the end anyway(and because of what they did too). I mean, at least with dagoth the were alive (just sick) with azura they all died!

What I realized about Oblivion and Skyrim was they had fast travel and it cheapened the immersion experience of the world I was put in. Morrowind didn't have quest markers either. So for for brain dead junkies used to modern gaming it made things hard for them and less fun. Personally having fast travel and markers makes the game too dull and rushed. It cheapens it overall. Sorry those disagreeing with me grow some brain cells and practice patience... Struggling in the wild and having the joy of finding my destination in one piece and or a Silt Strider was a rewarding experience. Far more than "fast travel". It will be cool one day to see the entire journey on the silt strider or gondola. It could be a faster safer journey with fun mini games and easter-egg dialog. That or the option of resting could be added.

I see what you mean. like make silt striders like that scenic cart mod. I like morrowinds travel better because traveling on foot is actually fun and cool, rather then skyrim's that is somewhat dull. still I rarely ever fast travel, makes for much more epic quests (me: sees winterhold from a distance. rides in on a horse with sword raised to battle arcano)

I like the idea of you on a silt strider riding in real time watching the land go by. and after that gets boring( after the 100th time riding it) you have the option to wait and depending on how long you wait you can be on deferent parts of the journey.

Yeah I like that in Morrowind

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRUadDc1onc

Let me get this out in the open first. This is not meant to insult anybody or rile anybody up. I'm just gonna try to make a counter argument for the sake of discussion.

 

Well as far as the fast travel system goes. I never use it.....don't get me wrong I LIKE the fast travel system in skyrim. I don't use it out of choice for the immersion, and just ignore it. However there are times when i just want to get somewhere to beat something or someone up. The option is there to use at will. And you don't have to use it. I know this argument has been used a million times but theres a reason for that. It's really the chief deciding factor on why many people don't mind it being there. If you end up using it and cheapening your own game session well.....thats kinda on you.

Besides I see people complaining all the time about there no longer being teleportation spells in the game when fast travel essentially IS teleportation. Only difference is you don't expel magicka to do so.

If you don't want fast travel in your playthrough im sure there is a mod to disable it. Same as quest markers. I think we should include them in skywind (where they make sense, if the pc would have no way of knowing where something is then obviously don't put it in. but if he's been givin directions to exactly where a cave is, or it's a very well known location in general then they should be there to make travel a little easier.) But have an optional plug-in to disable them should the player choose too.

I'm sure there will be no fast travel and quest markers in Skywind, the same as in Morrowind. Skyrim's engine is used only to enhance graphics and combat, nothing else.

If someone wants to fast travel, they can always use console or don't play Skywind.

I personally feel that fast travel from city to city via silt strider or between mages guilds (as in the original game) is a happy medium between no fast travel at all and being able to fast travel to anywhere.  Being able to get to any of the big cities can put you roughly in the area you need to be to do x quest.  I'm not sure if any official decision has been made on this or not, but I think the the best solution would be to have an option to fast travel be available in the mod menu, and have the skyrim style fast travel off by default.

zilav

I'm sure there will be no fast travel and quest markers in Skywind, the same as in Morrowind. Skyrim's engine is used only to enhance graphics and combat, nothing else.

If someone wants to fast travel, they can always use console or don't play Skywind.

All I was saying about the quest markers is that they should be used where it makes sense. If your character knows where the location is already then why shouldn't they're be one?  Besides couldn't they be put in with an option to just turn them off if you don't want them?

Agree 100%. Fast travel is already in the game with Silt Striders and Guild Guides. If you need to fast travel from the map to a location that's right beside a city that you could have easily walked to or even teleported to, I would call you lazy. But if you wish to be lazy, fast travel should be in the mod menu. (this is my personal opinion, i am not trying to offend anyone, and i apologize if i have)

And I think they should not be used anywhere in Skywind. See the pattern here? Different people have different opinions. If you want your opinion to matter, join and help the project. Until then you are just one of the hundreds who come here and post "I think you should do this and change that" and then disappear forever a week later.

Don't take this as an offence please, this is unfortunately how the things work with big community projects.

I try to contribute. I'm trying to contribute ideas and opinions so that they may be considered to help improve the mod. But sense i lack the skill, knowledge, and time to do any of the actuall modding work this is the best I can do. I don't plan on just disappearing and wish to see this thing come to fruition.

I think that it should be the same as in Morroblivion. Have quest markers but you can turn them off by finding a Nirnroot under the Seyda Neen bridge and making the "Seeking your roots" quest active. And the map based fast travel should stay and will be a feature for those who want it. If you don't use fast travel, you don't have to use it.

Morroblivion's fast travel and quest markers come at a compromise. In order for quest markers to appear, you have to get all the correct information from the quest giver. And when you start in Vvardenfell, you cannot fast travel anywhere until you discovered the settlements first, either by walking there or using silt striders.

I'd like to point out that Morrowind had a LOT of fast travel options, they just aren't used through the map. There's the above mentioned Guild Guides and Stilt Striders, but there's also two spells that teleport the caster to the nearest tribunal or imperial shrine, and there's the Mark/Recall spells that let you set a point to instantly teleport back to. There's also a number of rings/amulets and scrolls with these effects, meaning even non-mages can enjoy instant travel. I think that with these options the option to travel via the map is a little redundant.

That nirn root option could probably work with this quest. But I think Digital is working on a way to disable map markers anyway.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:A_Return_To_Your_Roots

But looking at some reviews of Morroblivion, they definitely praised the fast travel. But I don't fast travel usually in Vvardenfell - I use COC codes if I want to "fast travel" instantly in the original game (usually its going to the mainland for TR) or use the plenty of travel methods in the game.

Fast travel should be an option for those who want it IMO. Not that I'd use it but the people who want it and couldn't care less about the other travel options should have the option available for them.

huh, no I don't mean to remove map marker. I like map markers.

Being able to prevent fast travel on the map is something I might look into. But that would be an option (let's say in Skywind Facts and Configurator, pardon the plug).

I really don't understand the fuss at all. Why can't people be self-disciplined? You don't like fast travel on map, just don't use it. I know in my 300h+ in Skyrim, I used it maybe twice because i had a really short play session one day.

Anyway, yeah. If that's doable as an option, I might try to implement it.

Speaking as a person who's contributed a tiny bit to Morroblivion and almost nothing to Skywind...

Wouldn't it be more work to remove the fast travel markers? I almost never use fast travel, but I will be sad if we take it out. (That said, since I almost never use fast travel anyway, it probably won't affect me that much... Especially since I'll just silt strider/mage's guild everywhere.)

digitalparanoid

huh, no I don't mean to remove map marker. I like map markers.

Being able to prevent fast travel on the map is something I might look into. But that would be an option (let's say in Skywind Facts and Configurator, pardon the plug).

I really don't understand the fuss at all. Why can't people be self-disciplined? You don't like fast travel on map, just don't use it. I know in my 300h+ in Skyrim, I used it maybe twice because i had a really short play session one day.

Anyway, yeah. If that's doable as an option, I might try to implement it.

lol, I like them too, and disabling fast travel should be completely optional. I have fast travel enabled in Skyrim, and prefer walking place to place, but I'll fast travel if I feel lazy, or if I keep crashing at a certain point.

I agree with most of what you said, I don't often fast travel but when want to I do it, for example when I don't have much time to play.

Anyway I'm currently making a mod that add a map marker where the gate to Morrowind is, and it will be optional for sure, because you're talking of immersion breaking but I don't think that use the console to teleport not increase the immersion ;) I think it will be disabled by default and you'll need to finish something to enable it. I really like the idea (of zilav I think) with the black book, and I think we NEED some kind of quest to allow the player to travel between the worlds.

AlexP

I agree with most of what you said, I don't often fast travel but when want to I do it, for example when I don't have much time to play.

Anyway I'm currently making a mod that add a map marker where the gate to Morrowind is, and it will be optional for sure, because you're talking of immersion breaking but I don't think that use the console to teleport not increase the immersion ;) I think it will be disabled by default and you'll need to finish something to enable it. I really like the idea (of zilav I think) with the black book, and I think we NEED some kind of quest to allow the player to travel between the worlds.

whatever happened to a little pride here folks? Earn some money, loot or steal to buy yer own Siltstrider ticket to all your major Morrowind areas. Seriously it's a game. The best games are fun and challenging. The map marker speed travel that a lot of got introduced to in Oblivion killed it for many of us and we got lazy and started missing side missions or that gate of to the side, you know? I stopped speed traveling when I missed immersion and found the importance of sigil stone enchanting. 

I don't know about the rest of you but when I play I put the difficulty the highest and run around like the dickens as if it's real life valuing every resource and refuge. I also didn't have the internet or players guides when playing Morrowind. wish I did the same for the others.

I like challenge and having that virgin wonder of what's going to happen. This time around it will be more nostalgia and gratification to experience the game in full blume. Hopefully Bethesda makes a remake for the newer OS's and or a new series in one of the other regions with Morrowind fully as an expansion for the new release.

That's one of the reason why I said It'll be optional ;)

So if you want to go to Skyrim you'll use cow command?

Maybe guars could be used like horses in Skyrim, would be cool imo :)

Okay, new here, but what's with this discussion about connecting the games? Really?  Are we all so lazy that we can't be bothered to play a different game without still keeping the progress from another game? I can't take my maxed-out Oblivion character and use him for Skyrim. I can't use shouts in Dishonored. I know this mod has crept across the border of lore-friendlyness already, but it's only been done so we could truly represent Bethesda's vision. This flies in the face of lore and immersion. This should not be default. Why in Azura's name would you be able to use such Skyrim specific abilities in Morrowind by default? It's like if Bethesda made the model for Alduin a giant cricket with no explanation, and had all the NPCs act as though he was a dragon, and allow users to change this by downloading an obscure ESP from a random page on their website. To put it simply: It doesn't make any damn sense.

@ TheMaskedFelon: After you defeat Dagoth, I want to "fus ro dah" azura. I mean really, she could've done something to stop the red mountain from exploding. And it happened because Vivec lost his power. Eh... I digress. Still I want to blast like 60 cliff racers away with a "fus ro dah!" and or be decked out in nordic armor while a run through a dwemer ruin. It's that type of stuff that make Skywind infinitely more fun then OpenMW. I mean, I still think we should have the option to play completely lore friendly but still, why else would we merge the games, OpenMW is probably gonna have graphic just as good as skyrim and all the other side thing that we can't add(like the missing skills, I'm looking at you mysticism). I mean even though I enjoy lore and immersion greatly after a while I feel like why keep going around the same (red) mountain again, why not add a mod that changes it up a bit and makes an old game feel new again. So I guess I just want to get to level 255, then use dragon aspect, look at dagoth and say "I'm a god"

Personally I never use fast travel in skyrim but I often do look at the map to get an idea of where I'm at (like I load a save and all I see is a bunch of snow and some pine trees and I'm like "Where in oblivion am I"). So I would change it up so when you discover an area it's on the map after that but you can't fast travel to it, but that's just me, I'm fine with whatever(or make a skyui menu that allows you to configure the stuff to your liking: just for fun mode or lore immersion mode) . 

@TheMaskedFelon: Its an interesting point. I don't think people have really put much thought into the fact that playing Morrowind might increase your levels by 100, and its not much fun when you are spending your skills on the crap that is left over, and makes absolutely no difference at that stage. Maybe the new Beth patch with the "legendary" leveling might make it more interesting, but really, what is the point when you one shot kill everything. Trying to make the game challenging with leveled creatures only goes so far.

But that is cool, if we can make things as optional as possible then people can dabble in both worlds. Starting a new game will give the player the option of all the default settings to match Morrowind game mechanics as much as possible, including new set of perks or whatever we god damn feel like!

Exactly, that would be great! I don't know what it is that makes game developers so afraid to make their game modular like that, or if perhaps it's some sort of technical issue console-side maybe, but we don't have to worry about that here! 

I've said it before, I'll say it again: There's no need to re-invent the wheel.

Morroblivion (or at least, the version out when I was playing/modding for it) didn't come with a way to travel between games. If you wanted, you could load up Morroblivion and never leave Morrowind ever, which sounds like what TheMaskedFelon wants.

For people like me, there was an optional mod for Morroblivion that let you travel between the two freely. Now, I only ever went one way (since I figure my character can only move forward in time), but there's no reason to force people to stick to one game or another. For me, like others, the main draw to Skywind is be able to have one character go on the journey of the Nerevarine/CoC/Dragonborn. It may not be strictly lore friendly, but since Nerevar Incarnate is immortal, it's not impossible, either.

@Mooncat Yes I'm realizing now that I may have been too harsh with my first post. The game should allow the option to do that, but the default (if we do have a "default" version) should probably still have the player start over as a new person. It just seems like doing something like what you recommend would be straying way too far from the lore. What Skywind has done so far is like adding "Genghis Khan had a cousin named Dave" to a history book. While this whole time-travel-weird-reincarnation-whatnot stuff is like adding "Genghis Khan rode a unicorn into battle and became the 5th president of Ireland in 1801".

well it is a fantasy game so I think that stuff fits in, lol and oblivion did have a unicorn after all, and it being a fantasy game peoples fantasies may be to have one character live out all the stories, therefore we should try and give them at least a semi lore friendly option to do so, but it should be just that an option, side mod

Having the default force the player to start a new player is a bit much. What I think should simply be done is to allow the player to port between the two worlds IF they want to, via some magic doodad or something they can go to somewhere in the world (like the elder scroll option suggested before). But when you do start a new character you can start him in vvardenfell or skyrim. So you can still have a brand new character for skywind that isn't involved in vinella skyrim at all if thats what you want too.

bluesausage

Having the default force the player to start a new player is a bit much. What I think should simply be done is to allow the player to port between the two worlds IF they want to, via some magic doodad or something they can go to somewhere in the world (like the elder scroll option suggested before). But when you do start a new character you can start him in vvardenfell or skyrim. So you can still have a brand new character for skywind that isn't involved in vinella skyrim at all if thats what you want too.

 

there already is a mod to fast travel back and forth whenever you want

I'm a purist In some ways I guess. I think that setting up a menu of configurable options is the happy medium in some ways. Like when it comes to fast travel have the player be able to go in and tick or un tick a box on whether they want map fast travel or not. On the New Character or Existing argument I would say that on a new Game the player receives a message asking whether they want to play Skyrim or  Skywind. Then work out the options for how using an existing Skyrim character will work what ever is chosen. (in depth back story, simple boat travel, etc.) This way the people who want to play a purist Morrowind can, and those who want a DLC experience can also.

 

When It comes to Skywind I think standalone game not DLC. That's just my opinion. I will play Skywind for the Morrowind part more I guess than the Skyrim part. Skyrim is a great game but I want to play Morrowind in the Creation Engine not Skyrim with Morrowinds Quests.

I want it to feel like a whole new game. There are people who are going to play this who are burnt out on Skyrim who have looked under every rock and been to every location, done every quest. Those people are going to want to start over because your not really getting the full Morrowind experience if your starting with your Level 255 god character. People will stick to the game if it has more than just some quests but a new experience.

 

Don't mean to sound preachy. It takes a lot of hard work to make this happen.I know it can seem like every day there is another kid with a list of impossible demands that they want you to fulfill. I am going to do the best I can to make my contributions the best I can.

 

In case your wondering what I do. I do 3d models and texturing.

Take a look at my threads on my Iron Weapons and Armor I am working on for Skywind.

i think that the elderscroll is a good lore friendly option as all of the games are based on an event prophesised by an elder scroll, so in theory the dragonborn could just find a dead moth priest with the elder scroll that prophesised the nereverine

 But TBH i think that it should be like morrowblivion where you click new and it gives you an option to start in either skyrim or morrowind :)

imo i think all the moderators and contributors should have a vote on the subject, whats your opinion? :P

 

By default if you install Skywind, on starting a new game you will get a question (or some better looking stuff but basically boiling down to: ) Do you want to start in Skyrim or Morrowind ?

Select skyrim and you start skyrim normally

Select morrowind and you start a new game in morrowind (chargen and they give you the package for caius).

So, as default package, there's no travel between skyrim and morrowind. There will be optional downloads for travel mods so that everyone is happy.

You don't want to travel, you won't be able to by default. You want to travel but you prefer option A or option B, download mod A or mod B.

Mooncat.

For people like me, there was an optional mod for Morroblivion that let you travel between the two freely. Now, I only ever went one way (since I figure my character can only move forward in time), but there's no reason to force people to stick to one game or another. For me, like others, the main draw to Skywind is be able to have one character go on the journey of the Nerevarine/CoC/Dragonborn. It may not be strictly lore friendly, but since Nerevar Incarnate is immortal, it's not impossible, either.

i want to second that - i think its a matter of roleplaying... there´re probably many people who want to guide THEIR (existing, in many hours "finetuned")character through this "new" old lands... for me, e.g. if skyrim dlc would´ve demanded creating a new character i wouldn´t have thought one single second about buying it... :)

so i hope it will be optional to start skywind with an exisiting character.

I'd like to offer my opinion to the discussion in regards to fast travel and quest markers.

Firstly a lot of this could be sorted out with different esps, or given options on how you want the gameplay to be effected during installation of the game (e.g. "How do you want fast travel to work?" - Options: silt strider, guild guides and boats; fast travel markers; no fast travel; etc.), or before you start a new character, etc.

I would like people to think about the psychological impact that having the ability to fast travel and quest markers would have on the player. Sure enough the player can turn these things off or try to ignore them, but will he/she. A lot of people are sucked into this project because of nostalgic memories of Morrowind. They remember what it was like having to do quests and running from one place to another. Vvardenfell didn't just become a place of play, it became a home. They remember preparing for a big adventure because a quest required them to run out to the middle of nowhere with serious lack of civilization to run to if things got messy. But this wasn't a bad thing, it created the feeling that an adventure was actually an adventure. I would have to drop precious items in some cave or tomb to make room for other items, and maybe someday I would return for them.The freedom to quick travel can be nice, but the freedom to travel vast distances in mere seconds can take too much away from the experience we once had. And after so long, with this kind of freedom dangling in a player's face, you know that the player will cave in and use fast travel constantly. Give the option at the very start and then keep the decision restricted.

Quest markers, will we even need them anymore? There is enough dialogue in Morrowind to tell the player exactly what to do or where to go. Though, I don't know how Morrowind's journal will be implemented or if it will be implemented at all. But assuming that it will be implemented we really don't need quest markers. The dialogue for quest gave you landmarks to look out for, and this was in a game where you couldn't see very far. With Skyrim's distant land graphics, quests will be a whole lot easier to follow. So what is happening with Morrowind's journal?

digitalparanoid

By default if you install Skywind, on starting a new game you will get a question (or some better looking stuff but basically boiling down to: ) Do you want to start in Skyrim or Morrowind ?

Select skyrim and you start skyrim normally

Select morrowind and you start a new game in morrowind (chargen and they give you the package for caius).

So, as default package, there's no travel between skyrim and morrowind. There will be optional downloads for travel mods so that everyone is happy.

You don't want to travel, you won't be able to by default. You want to travel but you prefer option A or option B, download mod A or mod B.

exactly what he said the default will be pick one or the other, then there will be optional, fast travel mods, start morrowind with skyrim character mods ect, but they will all be optional and you can pick whichever one you want to run