Variation in Creature behaviour

I agree, they had that kind of behavior in Morrowind too.

It would go well with Skyrim's  radiant system. We can have random "mating kagoutis" you sometimes might encounter like you did in Morrowind

GendunDrup

It would go well with Skyrim's  radiant system. We can have random "mating kagoutis" you sometimes might encounter like you did in Morrowind

Oh goodie, then we can somehow fit this mod into Skywind!
http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/9279

UHHHHH I wasn't talking about giving Kagouti horse cocks.

[External image]

bow chicka wow wow

pls no

rig them to a chicken en let them lay a egg

i dont want to see Kagouti porn but 2 males trying to impress a female would be nice to see famale would just be kagouti whit smaller ore no horn/tusks 

Too far?

How'd you get that screenshot? I thought the full release for Skywind wasn't out yet!

That ain't no screenshot, it's a photoshop shot.

Hey, guys no offense, but if you take this any further, I'm gonna lock this thread and delete all of your posts....... :)

Anyway, that Kagouti looks really good SheepDogWolf, keep up the good modeling work!

I guess posting that horse mod was a bad idea lols. but pls no, I don't wanna appeal to our furry audience...



They scare me!

From Headscratchers: The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind

How does the food chain in Morrowind work? It seems odd that such a diverse group of large predatory animals would appear on an island where the only herbivores are hive based giant insects (I'm assuming the guar are predators because they have sharp teeth and wild ones are aggressive). The same problem appears on the island of Solstheim. There are literally no herbivores, yet there are bears and wolves. Why didn't they just put some sort of reindeer-esque herbivore on Solstheim?

• I suspect that there are some omnivorous among them, most likely the Guars.
• What do the netch eat?
  • Adventurers.
• Perhaps the population of predators in Solstheim could be attributed to the presence of Hircine? In turn over hunting would have wiped out almost he entire herbivorous population.
• Morrowind in general talks about a lot of animals that you don't see. Giant grabs are supposed to live in the Ashlands (just look at Under-Skar in Ald-Ahrun), wild Stilt Riders should be seen here and there, and the Ashlander tribes supposedly herd large insects. It is quite likely that there's a thriving wildlife - but the developers just didn't have time (or money) to put in all of the creatures needed to sustain an ecosystem.
  • The giant Emperor Crabs actually live in the ocean. Far out in the ocean. Ald'Rhun Skar died while on holiday, or something.
• Just because the guar are aggressive doesn't make them predators. There are a lot of herbivores in the real world that are aggressive if you approach them. The Ashlanders follow "herds" of guar (even if we don't actually SEE herds), and the guar have eyes on the sides of their heads rather than in front like predators generally do, so likely the guar are herbivores.

The predator/prey ratio is really screwed up in Morrowind. It's really mostly due to Cliff Racers just because there's so damn many of them.

well we have evidance of herbivores and prey, so is it possible for you guys to add them in?

oh and fun fact of the day: in the retail version of morrowind before the patches a spawn value was wrong, so there were 10 times as many cliffracers as there should have been :D in later patches bethesda adjusted the spawnrates.

Carnivores can eat other carnivores. It happens all the time in the wild. Its very possible that many of these things simply hunt the smaller carnivores as well, or they feed on dead animals like vulchers. for instance im pretty sure a kagouti could easily take down a nix hound. And the cliffracers have a great set-up to be scavengers as well as hunters.

As far as the netch. I'm pretty sure they're herbavores as well unless i got my lore wrong, they were treated as cows.

Cliffracers are pretty damned good predators if they made the dragons in Morrowind go extinct.

I found this information on the internet. The science is very basic (the article was for children ages 10 - 12 I'm guessing), but then again when has science ever in the Elder Scrolls been the primary drive for its creativity? Anyway, credit goes to Guy Belleranti, Reid Park Zoo, Tuscan, Arizona:

"A mammal can be a carnivore (meat eater), herbivore (plant eater) or omnivore (meat and plant eater). By looking at the teeth, eye position and feet you can usually identify which of the three it is.

 

First let's look at teeth. If the mammal has long, sharp canine teeth next to the front (incisor) teeth and also has sharp cheek teeth (carnissials) it is a carnivore. The canines are for seizing and stabbing prey. The carnassials help cut up meat in the mouth.

 

If the mammal has either blunt canines or no canines, and has big flat side and back teeth (premolars and molars) it is a herbivore. Herbivores use their molars for crushing and grinding plants.

 

But what about herbivores that do have large front teeth? Beavers, for example, have huge front incisors. And river hippos have two huge lower canines. Well, beavers use their incisors for chewing through bark, branches and even trees. And hippos use their canine tusks for defense and fighting, not for chewing. But both beavers and hippos have large flat molars that they use for grinding up plant matter. If the mammal has a variety of all kinds of teeth (canines, incisors, premolars and molars) it is an omnivore. It has a variety of teeth because it eats a variety of foods, both meat and plants.

 

Now let's talk about eye position. Carnivorous and omnivorous mammals have eyes in front to help them spot and judge the distance of prey. Think of the rhyme "eyes in front, help them hunt". Herbivores' eyes are located more on the side of their head. This gives them a wider view, helping them to spot predators sooner so they can flee. Think of the rhyme "eyes on side, help them hide". And, finally, there are the differences in feet. Carnivores almost always have claws to hold prey, climb trees, dig for food and fight. They also have soft pads on their feet so they can sneak up on prey. Omnivorous mammals may have claws (like bears), or hands (like primates) for grabbing food. Herbivores, meanwhile, often have hooves to help them run away. Or, like the beaver and capybara, some or all of their feet may be webbed to help them swim away."

The problem with carnivores eating other carnivores is that, at each step in the food chain, about 90% of the energy is wasted. Even just going from one predator species to another and to a third means that only .1% of the original energy is left in the food chain. The result of this is that each step up the food chain, you should see less and less predators (except for very small things like maggots), especially if the predators are big.

Netches are indeed herbivorous, but they don't contribute much to the wild food chain because they're largely domesticated and Cliff Racers, which are probably just about impossible for the other carnivores to hunt, are the only things that would be able to even come up to them (I just realized:discounting Sapients and Daedra from the food chain, Cliff Racers are an apex predator).

Two easy things that can probably mitigate this problem are the inclusion of non-Slaughterfish fish species and adding a lot of small insects to the world (Morrowind had fly sounds around dead bodies if I recall correctly. Those, butterflies, and some torchbugs could be a start). Even then, we'll really need another land herbivore (or two) or a lot more Guars for a believable food chain.

Are shalks carnivoires? They were probably modeled off of stag beetles, which eat rotting wood, and crabs tend to be scavengers, so perhaps mudcrabs could be too. The ecosystem in Morrowind as it stands is indeed extremely unrealistic, though- it could use some herbivores of all sizes.

I started this fully prepared to agree that the current system was severely unsustainable. The more I though about it, though, the more I realized it's closer to realistic than is first apparent.

Herbivores could easily include the netch and all of the kwama, including scribs; kwama and scribs are pretty common, so that's a big chunk of space that's filled. There really aren't any large creatures that are obviously herbivores; however, the alit and guar could be omnivores, and the nix hound might be, but is likely a carnivore. The ever-present rats and cliff racers are very likely omnivores with the cliff racers possibly being scavengers. The netch can't be attacked by anything except the cliff racers, who are also unreachable; however, that doesn't mean that they live forever. When they do eventually die, their bodies fall to the ground and will be consumed. In the case of the cliff racers, that's still a lot of lost energy, but for the netch, that's purely gained energy. With mudcrabs and shalk to fill the gaps, that pretty much covers everything. The mudcrabs may eat fish or vegetation or whatever, but whatever they need, they can probably get it from the water so it's almost all gained energy. The shalk are likely to be omnivores/scavengers. They probably eat whatever they can get.

I'm not saying the proportions are perfect, but they're not as far off as they seem at a glance. With the only definite carnivore being the kagouti, and the giant netch being herbivores to occasionally giving it a boost, plus the kwama being the base of the whole thing as a pretty common herbivore, it's actually less of a ready-to-topple pyramid on its point and more like the Leaning Tower of Pisa.

With Skyrim's fish (modified-for-Morrowind versions, of course) being added to the seas, insects around the land, and a bit of tweaking for the commonality of different animals, it could easily be a sustainable food chain. The point made about the flies and dead bodies is a great thing to keep in mind.

As far as the thread's original question goes, if the developers had had the time and money, I have no doubt they would have done the same thing. So, it's absolutely a good idea. I would personally love to see lots of lore-friendly variations in creatures and their habits.

thanks xander for your insight on the economic system!

i would only wish for one feature in skywind: pls add rabbits and deer to the skyrim border if it fits! just because humans draw a line on a map , doesn't mean animals wont travel across this border.

@Xander

It would be nice to see some Cliff Racers replaced with Kwama Foragers/Scribs in areas where it makes sense. I don't know about Alit though, they're supposed to be very closely related to the Kagouti, which are definitiely carnivores.

@TWarrior

The Skyrim border is on the mainland. Everything in the original Morrowind game was in Vvardenfell, and only Tribunal gave us a glimpse of the mainland...with exactly one walled-up city (think of it as the precursor to Oblivion's walled-up cities. Completely interior, can't levitate, and if you manage to get over the walls from inside you'll find that the outside isn't really there.).

If it was feasible, Tamriel Rebuilt would be put in Morroblivion/Skywind and we would eventually get a Skyrim/Morrowind border, but it's just a ton of work and Morrowind stuff doesn't convert nicely.

@TWarrior Nebbie already answered it, but the border between the two provinces is just a man/mer-made line; you're right. But the border between Vvardenfell and the Morrowind mainland (where the border with Skyrim is) is a sea. Otherwise, that would be a fantastic idea.

@Nebbie Aw, come on. It's not THAT much more work. Having all of Morrowind would be quite the reward!

Of course, I realize that really would be a massive undertaking. Isn't TR something like twice the size of Vvardenfell? Hey, I can dream.

Also, I didn't know Alit and Kagouti were that closely related. So, I guess there are probably two large carnivores. It's still fixable, I think. I think the main reason it ended up the way it did in vanilla Morrowind is because they didn't have the time or resources (hardware) to both balance it properly and have a large enough predator base so the wildlife could be challenging. They opted for challenging. We would seem to have the hardware now, at least. And time seems to be somewhat relative here, lol. So it'd be nice to see it fixed.

Xander9009

I started this fully prepared to agree that the current system was severely unsustainable. The more I though about it, though, the more I realized it's closer to realistic than is first apparent.

Herbivores could easily include the netch and all of the kwama, including scribs; kwama and scribs are pretty common, so that's a big chunk of space that's filled. There really aren't any large creatures that are obviously herbivores; however, the alit and guar could be omnivores, and the nix hound might be, but is likely a carnivore. The ever-present rats and cliff racers are very likely omnivores with the cliff racers possibly being scavengers. The netch can't be attacked by anything except the cliff racers, who are also unreachable; however, that doesn't mean that they live forever. When they do eventually die, their bodies fall to the ground and will be consumed. In the case of the cliff racers, that's still a lot of lost energy, but for the netch, that's purely gained energy. With mudcrabs and shalk to fill the gaps, that pretty much covers everything. The mudcrabs may eat fish or vegetation or whatever, but whatever they need, they can probably get it from the water so it's almost all gained energy. The shalk are likely to be omnivores/scavengers. They probably eat whatever they can get.

I'm not saying the proportions are perfect, but they're not as far off as they seem at a glance. With the only definite carnivore being the kagouti, and the giant netch being herbivores to occasionally giving it a boost, plus the kwama being the base of the whole thing as a pretty common herbivore, it's actually less of a ready-to-topple pyramid on its point and more like the Leaning Tower of Pisa.

With Skyrim's fish (modified-for-Morrowind versions, of course) being added to the seas, insects around the land, and a bit of tweaking for the commonality of different animals, it could easily be a sustainable food chain. The point made about the flies and dead bodies is a great thing to keep in mind.

As far as the thread's original question goes, if the developers had had the time and money, I have no doubt they would have done the same thing. So, it's absolutely a good idea. I would personally love to see lots of lore-friendly variations in creatures and their habits.

thats exactly what i meant! lol im just not as good at making my point. heh

oh god i feel like an idiot now -.- of course i meant the morrowind/skyrim border but forgot that the game was only on vvardenfell. of course this would mean a physical border and thus we see no rabbits or deer.

if you guys however manage to convert the tamriel rebuilt mod however, think about adding them to the border.

again sorry, i made too quick assumptions and did not think about the difference between morrowind and vvardenfell!

 

keep up the awesome work guys!

There's already a mod for skyrim that adds mainland morrowind, it's 4E though 

GendunDrup

There's already a mod for skyrim that adds mainland morrowind, it's 4E though 

That's awesome. I didn't realize that.

If its the mod I think your talking about "Shadows of Morowind", then its just using the height map from Dragonborn, and its much more geared towards making the volcano as big as possible rather than the original landscape of Morrowind. It also doesn't really have much going on with it, as its just one person who has started since Dragonborn I guess. Another 4E Morrowind is being done is "Return to Morrowind" from a team on the Dark Creations website. I wouldn't hold your breath for that one, 2 to 3 years away, with possibility it doesn't get finished at all.

Right so I've been looking through all the creature mods for Skyrim and here is a bunch of creatures, mostly insect/arachnid, that I think could be bite sized prey for the Morrowind creatures. The idea is that they are passive and even run away, but help to fill the world with more wildlife. Admittedly they are the scariest looking prey you'll ever find, but such is Morrowind :-p Also think in terms that these will be scaled to the size of say a cat, so they will appear far less threatening. Morrowind creatures would attack them obviously.

Ok this one give me night-terrors

Happy Chappy, yes!! I love this idea. One reason I love Morrowind is because of how in-depth it is in it's own lore and fantasy!

Having creatures that 'look' terrifying, doesn't always mean they are aggressive or powerful!

While I think there should be stronger, maybe even larger ones that could be a slightly bigger challenge...
Adding more creatures that are unique(ish) will make Skywind feel overall, that much more unique!

I thought the Nix-Hound was kind of like a really aggressive reptilian ant-eater. They don't really have mouths, they have tube faces, and stubby claws more likely for scraping away at something rather than holding prey.

But EVERYTHING in Morrowind attacks you. Nix-Hounds would be a great replacement for deer, just change it up so when attacked the fight back and aggro any other pack mates in the area instead of running.

I would also think there's a rather large rat population feeding off things like Kwama eggs which are large and laid in abundance. So they would have a constant food supply to keep them fat and plentiful. They're already the size of small dogs as well, so 1 or 2 rats could probably keep an Alit going.

this is pretty much what i was thinking of when we recently looked at the skeleton.

FOr example, we can create 3 types of shalk, one using the mudcrab skeleton so it hides under ash.

we can create different types of guar, nix and alit.
But we have to sort this skeleton system 1st, but soon i think its time to start reconcepting new creatures and old.