Disturbing Dream Scenes

Looking pretty good so far, though the gore might be lacking. This mod has some assets that could be used for the extra gore http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/34917/?tab=3&navtag=%2Fajax%2Fmodimages%2F%3Fid%3D34917%26user%3D1&pUp=1

But permission must be gained and its really up to you how bloody you want it to be, But over all it looks good.

I like the idea of it just being a cutscene more than playing it , would feel more like a dream to me, imho That being said if you do play it then it's looking wonderful, if it's kept as just a cutscene the only improvement would be to lose the hud and crosshair and such

Sweet, that looks great! Now we just need Dagoth Ur and a voice...

Well if you need any effects, this quest did something like you're doing.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Waking_Nightmare

Also, on one of the later Thieves guild quests they have a blurry wake up effect that you could use.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Speaking_With_Silence

damn this fine!

so, Dagoth Model needed?

I think it is great idea! Making it into a cutscene would make it more immersive, as these dreams are put into your mind rather then them being created by your character's psyche...

 

In my opinion...

That's what I thought too but Sammybeau wanted the first one to be realtime.

stijmunkeyI like the idea of it just being a cutscene more than playing it , would feel more like a dream to me, imho That being said if you do play it then it's looking wonderful, if it's kept as just a cutscene the only improvement would be to lose the hud and crosshair and such

 

I think quite the contrary, that it will be much more engaging and immersive if it's interactive :P Even if our interaction would be limited only to moving the camera. I think 3rd person view, inventory/magic/map/skills access and HUD should be disabled for those sequences though.
I think that the scene could use some more funky effects, like the whole scene could be obscured by a thick, dark red fog for example.

There are normally dialog boxes already working for the disturbing dreams. So whatever you do, cutscenes or semi-playable quests, you can plug them at the same location.

Nice idea. I think head movement could very well be enabled, but everything else should be running on its own. Then it will fit with dream experiences of most of us (despite those you are lucid dreamers).

But as mentioned already, the whole experience should be made more dream like... heavy use of depth of field, fog, light effects, reverb... thus that is becomes a bit disorientating, disturbing indeed ;-)

I could compose Dark Ambient tracks for those dreams :D

Dragomir

stijmunkeyI like the idea of it just being a cutscene more than playing it , would feel more like a dream to me, imho That being said if you do play it then it's looking wonderful, if it's kept as just a cutscene the only improvement would be to lose the hud and crosshair and such

 

I think quite the contrary, that it will be much more engaging and immersive if it's interactive :P Even if our interaction would be limited only to moving the camera. I think 3rd person view, inventory/magic/map/skills access and HUD should be disabled for those sequences though.
I think that the scene could use some more funky effects, like the whole scene could be obscured by a thick, dark red fog for example.

 

That sounds alright i would be ok with that

... why 3rd person view? I never see myself from that perspective when I dream...

I meant DISABLE. The view that should be forced is the first person :P And player should control the character, but shouldn't be able to access menus and combat. Much like in the beginning of Skyrim, when we're to walk to the executioner.

Made some mock-up of dreaming quest (occurs once you go to sleep). I use scene, which plays on player character with disabled controls (like in intro). Requires only skyrim (i haven't got skywind, but i think should be compatible).

Idea... Since we have loads of talented 2D artists and musicians, how about the dreams be 2D animation videos that play?  We could get more abstract with interpretations this way, and make everything seem more dreamlike.

Check this at around the 5 minute mark for an idea of the surreal horror that could be http://youtu.be/3kyroB6YWXI

Or this creepy jewel http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ij643Evsyt4

Those videos should be the same style, not just random arts slideshow (that would fits wierd) and it's a heavy piece of work for one. I want to ask for that level in OP-post to combine with my quest, may be I'll add some wedding-like stuff (not sure what dunmeric wedding looks like), some mysterious (for ex. heart-beating) sound on background. Should be fascinating.

2d animation? a certain artstyle with that can be awesome in some games but sadly i think it does not fit skyrim and/or skywind. the first video posted looks awesome. we just need dagoth ur walking in front of the player, disorineted sounds, bloom and blur etc. i think a lot of good ideas have been mentioned here. also being able to "play" the dream makes it way for immersive and memorable than it being just a cutscene!

I suggest replacing bodies with burned corpses, to add to the effect. As for music, I picture a chime along with a slow drum, two consecutive beats at a time similar to Morrowind's main theme. :) looks good

I'll throw some ideas out to the music team and see what kind of creepy things we can come up with ;)

Do you guys remember that quest in Oblivion where you enter the painting? Everything was retextured to have this hazy impressionistic feel. I think that style would work really well for this scene, very dream-like and a bit off-putting.

Good idea twisted! Smoke would also be a nice touch

Skyrim default dream effect works really nice here, don't see a point to reinvent a bicycle here, I'll upload some video as soon as i get home.

i wanna see the video, can't wait with what you come up with :)

I always imagined the dead bodies were magicly suspended in the air in a mock standing position. As if limply hanging from a meat hook but without the hook. Would be much more unsettling and add more visually without having to always look down. On the other hand I have no idea if that's even possible. I'm just putting down a thought.

Video is here. It's just a tech implementation of concept, visual and audio data easily can be (and should be) changed. Not sure about OP post's location, cause don't know how daedric interior related to six house and dagoth uhr, although it looks great.

http://youtu.be/UkmZGnwHGn8

great proof of concept! we definetely have something to work with.

What if we made short 30 second clip dreams like this:  http://youtu.be/DiyFp5nlaIg

Notice the use of concept art interspersed.  These dreams are prophetic almost, even the dream at the beginning of Morrowind.  These could be fully choreographed with sound and imagery drawn from the paragraphs that summarized the dreams in Morrowind, be disorienting and abstract in ways that a simple play-through could not.

Perhaps LASentry could use the method he took to create the cinematics of the game for the Disturbing Dreams? I think using a similar style as in the beginning (which is a dream from Azura herself mind you) would benefit the player's sense that they are living through a prophetic dream. Similar montages, shots and timelapsed effects could really make these dreams progressively more eerie and frightening as the story advances. 

I know we are basically gay for eachother... But Smitehammer has a point. The problem with a drawn out interactive sequence is that we as game designers do not have the power to convey emotion the way we want to (without really limiting the players options, in which case the lack of power will be very distracting). In terms of game design, the best way to go about this dream is to have it be a scene that you watch... And doing that in the style that smitehammer is talking about is probably the best way.

I have finally registed just to give my 2 cents in this subject. I like both the ideas, being able to actually play the dream sequence sounds good  but I think that Smitehammer's idea would give a much stronger effect of a dream, being much more confusing and creepy then it would if it was played. If it was up to me, it would go with the images effect, though I am happy anyway, any of this ideas sound great and it's sure a great improvement over the morrowind text.

Agreed, I really liked the Promethean vision in Mass Effect, it was suitably chaotic.

I think the short, Prothean vision would be the best way to go on this. Feels more like a nightmare to me.

Personally, I prefer Sammybeau's approach. I think both approaches are good of course but the interactive sequence seems more immersive, well at least in my opinion. When we have dreams and/or nightmares, we experience them as somewhat of a sequence, not flashes. We're presented with a certain degree of control whilst still failing to possess full control. Unfortunately I have to disagree with Langotriel, I strongly believe that Sammy's approach can effectively be executed game design wise. You can most certainly portray the vibe you want with this approach. There are so many skilled individuals who are participating in this project and with the right setting (location, theme, soundtrack etc) it can be fantastic! Restricting this sequence to first person, appropriately blurring screen edges and disabling all forms of combat related interactions would work very well and most likely add to the immersion as far as the dream/nightmare is concerned. A very shallow but still good example being Bioshock Infinite...

Alphizzle

A very shallow but still good example being Bioshock Infinite...

Bioshock infinite is an example of what NOT to do... why? Because in a dream, you have no control.. unless you do, in which case it is a lucid dream.. but lucid dreams are never nightmares (unless maybe.. drugs?). They are whatever the person wants to dream about. Giving limited control to the player screws up pacing (waiting forever in the room in bioshock for example.. it achieves nothing but that is the option i have.. it serves NO purpose and might as well just not be interactive.) Either give the player FULL control... completely and utterly so... but that is not possible, or give them no control.. but with no control, making it look like just regular gameplay will not be the most effective method.

So... The flashes is objectively the best way from a game design perspective because there are no conflicts of interest created between the player and the game and there are no problems with pacing. You can have your opinion.. but it is not good game design.

Langotriel

Because in a dream, you have no control.. unless you do, in which case it is a lucid dream.. but lucid dreams are never nightmares (unless maybe.. drugs?). They are whatever the person wants to dream about

I've had a couple of nightmare lucid dreams...Lucid dreams just means you're aware of you being in a dream and can exert some form of control on that dream. Its annoying as hell along with my damn constant sleep paralysis. 

Whilst I respect your opinion I still have to disagree. To address some of your points....firstly, lucid dreamers CAN NATURALLY experience nightmares. Therefore a lucid dream can naturally be a nightmare. Secondly, this approach wouldn't screw up pacing as it wouldn't necessarily be waiting endlessly/forever. Reason being, when designing the sequence that issue can easily be prevented no doubt, considering the fact that this 'possibility' has already been identified so I don't see any reason why it cannot work. Thirdly, it would serve a purpose. This concept was requested in the first place because people feel that it can work and I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the idea before attempting it to a sufficient standard (we've seen Sammy's preview, so let's see what the end product is and then judge).

Sammy's preview, as well as the suggestions made by others show its potential and to be fair it has been very well received...and that's because people have faith in what they have seen. If i use the opening of Skyrim as an example, the player wasn't given full control in that but it was still a worthwhile experience....compared to if the game showed previews or quite literally flashbacks of what had occurred before, with the game then picking up at Helgen. Fact is that this is the player's dream and to realistically experience it from their perspective would be through an interactive sequence....Sammy's preview showed...well a linear experience and from what I've seen so far it worked really well for what it was aiming to achieve..and I am as much of a gamer as anyone else so with that being said, in my opinion it IS good for game design.....

But at the end of the day it isn't my decision to make.....

@Alphizzle 

Sammy's preview?.. pretty un eventful and boring if you ask me. I have played enough games to know what works. The scene at the beginning of skyrim is long, tedious and after the first time, incredibly boring. People play and replay these things to death.. we need it to be a positive part of the experience for every playthrough.

explaining why it wont ruin pacing made little sense. In sammys preview.. the player could just stand there and not care.. what then? It is a part of the game that is forced on the player.. It is like putting a teenager in the kitchen where he has the "option" to do the dishes or not leave the kitchen... great.. i bet that's fun. Even if it was eating ice cream in the kitchen, after your 10th playthrough, it would get tedious to walk through dreams that have no surprises or suspense left in them. Making a 2d animated flashback thingy sequence would also be repetitive in the same way but it is not tedious and therefore not boring.. and they would be super short, so we can control the experience 100% and make it the best it can be.

If there is no good reason for the player to control the character (and no it is not more immersive.. it does not feel like a dream when it is in a game..) then it is not good game design. Depending on how you do things, it could work fine but, the best way for an overall experience would undoubtedly be the flashback example, where we are not limited at all in any way creatively. For the artists, it is the most fulfilling experience, for the player it is the most exciting and for the game it is the most fitting.

I guess i'll throw in my two cents...The two choices I see are have an animated sequence or have the dream take place in game. I currently see only one proof of concept and tbh till I see another from the other side I'll have to go with the one that currently displays the most promise. I think both can be done very well and I don't think one way is the only way. If an artist or a group of artists prove that that they can make a well made and consistent piece then defiantly my opinion can be swayed but right now I can't throw in my vote for something that has yet to prove itself.

Edit: Also if anyone knows the actual text for all these dream could you post it I've looked but couldn't find it and I'd like myself and others to be on the same page on what these sequences will entail. 

I understand your reasons for concern but I have got to disagree. You say the player could "just stand there and not care" but the player could do that anytime in the game so that point you made isn't really valid...so what about pacing then, huh? Also, the scene would seem long and boring if nothing interesting is going on. At least with this approach the player has slightly more control compared to the opening seen in Skyrim where they are literally at a standstill. Whereas with this the player still controls the pace which is a good thing as it caters to more people in its execution as there are people who want to experience it in such a way as long as it is done well, believe it or not. However, as I previously said, being able to experience that scene in Skyrim still served its purpose for introductions....and yes, while it may have been boring or long or whatever...that was down to how Bethesda approached that method, rather than the nature of the method itself.... You say "depending on how things are done it could work fine"...EXACTLY! If you read my first post you would notice that is my point as I basically said that I believe that the guys working on this project can do it in such an effective way to make it work really well. With how I vision it, it would be more immersive, you have your preference and I have mine...and I too can say that I have played enough games to know what works. You're making a final judgment on something that hasn't even been finalised yet....there is no harm in seeing what it is like when it has progressed and implemented the suggestions made by others above...so I guess you and I will have to agree to disagree. 

Lastly, sure it will be great for the artists but you cannot guarantee that it will be the most exciting for the player or most fitting for the game. During the 'dream' at the opening of Morrowind I wasn't impressed, instead my reaction was "meh..." and I CAN guarantee that many others felt that way too 

Anyway, like I said, I don't dislike the other idea but I will not be so quick to dismiss something until I see more progress. 

Thank you! Exactly what I've been saying. I couldn't agree with you more! I like both ideas as I said, but from the one piece I have seen it seems to work and I don't see why it should be dismissed when it isn't even close to how few of us vision it. We should at least wait until some of the suggestions have actually been implemented before we decide.

I personally would vote the in-game dream sequence. With Mass Effect, the idea was a rapid cluster of disjointed images being shoved into Shepard's head all at once, and the intended effect was chaos and intensity. The House Dagoth dreams, to me, come across as more sinister and ominous. Not jump-scare fear, but a slowly building dread and discomfort as it becomes increasingly clear that there is something very WRONG with this country.

Mass Effect-style rapid information is too dramatic, I'd argue. It feels like the type of nightmare people catapult awake from in movies. This should let the player wake up normally, but feel really really uncomfortable during breakfast.

1st dream:  I had a disturbing dream. I can only recall one part. A tall figure with a golden mask led me among the dead as through a wedding celebration. I heard many voices, but no lips moved. I strained to breathe, but my chest didn't move. The tall figure spoke with each figure as he passed among them, laughing and joking, as if they were alive, but they made no reply. I tried to cry out, but without breath, my tongue fluttered in vain.

2nd dream:  In my dream, a tall figure with a golden mask greeted me, saying, "There are many rooms in the house of the Master. Be easy, for from the hands of your enemies I have delivered you." It seemed I had died and could see myself laid upon a table lit by candles. But with my own hands I touched the figure, and the figure drew breath, opened eyes, and rose from the table. Then the room was gone, and the world filled with light, and I awoke.    

3rd dream: I dreamed that a tall figure with a golden mask spoke to me, but I understood not a word. He smiled, and seemed pleasant, but when he reached to touch me, it terrified me, and I tried to escape, but I couldn't move. I tried to cry out, but I couldn't make a sound. The figure kept smiling and talking, but I felt sure he was trying to cast some sort of spell on me. When I woke, I couldn't recall how the dream ended.    

4th dream:  In my dreams, a tall figure in a golden mask spoke to me. "Lord Nerevar Indoril, Hai Resdaynia! Long forgotten, forged anew! Three belied you, three betrayed you! One you betrayed was three times true! Lord Voryn Dagoth, Dagoth Ur, steadfast liegeman, faithful friend, bids you come and climb Red Mountain! Beneath Red Mountain, once again, break your bonds, shed cursed skin, and purge the n'wah from Morrowind!"

I personally fo fully agree with Drakevarg and would prefer the ingame-scene. I actually do not like cutscenes and think they're often interrupting the gameplay and thus I like to skip them.

And your point with the 2nd, 3rd and so on playthrough isn't valid. The only advantage of a cutscene-style is as I said already that you may be able to skip it.
I think that if you just can move your head and the character's moving you get a much more interesting and touching experience.

Sure, the second time you play through the exact same scene it may get "boring" but normally, at least I, do not "experience" the game again on a second playthrough, I just play it.

The impact of this thread surprises me. I'll continue developing my concept, although i realize it may be not included in final build, but it's the only thing i can do until i haven't access to skywind. Would be grateful if someone described (text/picture/model) setting (decorations, sounds may be) of dream, cause I'm more in coding, not in artistic skills.

Smitehammer

1st dream: 

 

Thanks smite [External image]

Drakevarg

I personally would vote the in-game dream sequence. With Mass Effect, the idea was a rapid cluster of disjointed images being shoved into Shepard's head all at once, and the intended effect was chaos and intensity. The House Dagoth dreams, to me, come across as more sinister and ominous. Not jump-scare fear, but a slowly building dread and discomfort as it becomes increasingly clear that there is something very WRONG with this country.

Mass Effect-style rapid information is too dramatic, I'd argue. It feels like the type of nightmare people catapult awake from in movies. This should let the player wake up normally, but feel really really uncomfortable during breakfast.

 

wow great view on the two ideas! i think we should also go with the playable dream. if we manage to make it as dramatic and interesting as possible via sound, screen disortion and level design the players wont stand just still (remeber we still play a game and want to progress!) .if we make the dream interesting people will want to follow dagoth ur trough that linear part because they are curious!

obscurantist

The impact of this thread surprises me. I'll continue developing my concept, although i realize it may be not included in final build, but it's the only thing i can do until i haven't access to skywind. Would be grateful if someone described (text/picture/model) setting (decorations, sounds may be) of dream, cause I'm more in coding, not in artistic skills.

 

check the original video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XX-MacySJM
 

"I had a disturbing dream. I can only recall one part. A tall figure with a golden mask LED ME among the dead as through a WEDDING CELEBRATION. I heard MANY VOICES, but no lips moved. I strained to breathe, but my chest didn't move. The tall figure spoke with each figure as he passed among them, laughing and joking, as if they were alive, but they made no reply. I tried to cry out, but without breath, my tongue fluttered in vain."

so i think the first video shows some good ideas.

- it is linear like a walk to an altar during a wedding, so you should also do that.
- make the dead people more gore like! there are ressource mods for blood i think on the nexus or work with what the creation kit offers to you :)
- maybe you can record some voices and disort them so that you cant understand them, then repeat and layer them.
- make dagoth ur (amaybe use a test model in case dagoth isnt done yet) walk in front of the charcater (A tall figure with a golden mask LED ME among the dead as through a WEDDING CELEBRATION.) and let the charcater follow him like you did without movement but only camera working!

Exactly! Someone who sees the playable dream sequence the way I do! Thank you! If it is handled correctly (which I am confident it will be with all the great talent to support it) it can be amazing! It won't be boring or ruin the pace! it could potentially be one of the most memorable parts of Skywind!