[REL] Cave Tileset Replacer for Level Designers

I have adapted Skyrim cave interiors to work for Morrowind caves. So far I have only done this for the mold caves.

Originally I was trying to do ALL the work myself by replacing Morrowind models in an automated 1 to 1 way. However the results were that there wasn't enough variation, models repeated too often.

So it's far better if level designers insert the new tileset pieces in manually, giving it a touch of randomness and nothing beats the human eye when it comes to constructing.

The main thing is that Morrowind models were perfectly symmetrical. They are turned upside down and left and right, and it didn't matter.

Where as these models are completely unsymmetrical, hence why they are more realistic. Better level design leans towards making environments look more like entropy has taken effect. There are also more design choices, with a lot of them having cracks and holes, that can let in light or just be a creepy thing to look through.

I have replaced a few of the pieces so that level designers have a base to line up models with and also save a little bit time. But I wanted to keep it open to picking which pieces to insert so that a bit more creativity is put into the construction of the caves.

I have replaced all the corner models in the game, so this is the type of thing a level designer will see.

The best thing to do is get familiar with what models you have to choose from. All the form ids are prefixed with ENV3d_DUNG_BETHHAP_MOLD

There are essentially;

Small Corridors meshes\morrowind\dungeons\caves\smallhall\*.*

Small Rooms meshes\morrowind\dungeons\caves\smallroom\*.*

Large Rooms meshes\morrowind\dungeons\caves\largeroom\*.*

Caverns meshes\morrowind\dungeons\caves\cavern\*.*

In this example I've choosen to use the ENV3d_DUNG_BETHHAP_MOLD_caveghallramp02 and ENV3d_DUNG_BETHHAP_MOLD_caveghalldetwist02 to make up the section.

Ignore the horrid textures, they are used to show up top and bottoms and the pink L is to show where its left facing side is. Easy for development purposes, final texturing will come later.

The twist model can be used to make left and right facing models connect.

Use the "Snap to Grid" for most of your work with getting tile pieces into place. If you go into the "Preferences" and Movement you'll see "Snap to Grid" and change that to 64.

The models are not quite as wide as the originals, so some clutter will need to be moved. The large rooms are higher so again moving some objects will be needed.

On the whole you can even build the rooms out a bit to compensate. I did this for one section that had some Kwama eggs and so rather than JUST replacing where models were, I built it out a little bit to compensate. You don't need to be exact when designing, there should be heaps of scope to make each cave slightly unique with a bit of extra effort.

If you look at how Skyrim caves are constructed you can see that the designers have tried to make nothing symmetrical with a lot of effort in adding extra models. Morrowind is very much status quo with the tileset the main construction and added boulders to break up the lines of the walls. We can go MUCH further with this, if you want caves to be exciting, creepy, and generally immersive.

Building rooms is more tricky than the corridors, because only certain pieces will fit together. Its a case of trail and error building everything up so that all the pieces fit with the seam being the right match up.

You'll need to set the Snap to Grid settings to something much smaller as you want the height to match up closely with what is on the ground. For the rooms I set it to 8. It means more work in getting things to line up, but is needed to get the right heights.

I have done Abaesen-Pulu Egg Mine as an example of a completed replacer.

For the Caverns, you'll find that some of them have the roof textures as the floor and vise versa. Once again Morrowind was so symmetrical that Bethesda turned them round both ways. This is fine but these models need to be replaced so that the textures are the right way up. So for each cavern there is a new form ID that is suffixed with "d" to the original. If you find the a floor is green then it needs to be replaced.

Also one of the things you have to do is add door ways so that it is seamless between rooms.

Doors look like this

and its mirror opposite

Plus there are some more with bigger walls for more cavernous entries. So its a case of using the right one to fit in with whatever is joining to the rooms or caves.

These will be available in our next developer release 0.9.1, so if your a long time lurker and been thinking about how you can help, this honestly is probably one of the easiest tasks to do.

If you are a minecraft person, this is should be like a wet dream to you. Building blocks, but you actually get to make something really amazing.

There is no collision on the models yet, so if you want to test in game to see what it looks like, use the command console 'tcl' to turn off collision.

Post in this thread which cave you'll be doing so that we don't double up :)

Last edited by grumpycat on 14 Mar 2014 - 14:13.

Sorry to drop that in, but

Sorry to drop that in, but for me they look like skyrim caves (even worse) and not even close to morrowind caves. Sorry, there is really no morrowind feel at all with these new cave meshes. Also the shape does more look like a chanterelle mushroom... Just my 2 cents. But if I want to see skyrims boring dungeons tiles all over I can just play Skyrim.

I understnad you want to finalize the project fast. But please don't do it on coast of quality, cause these dungeons tiles really are LOW quality! BTW there is a cave near seyda neen which is cluttered with stones and stuff. That looked pretty awesome. I wish more caves would look like this one at the bittercoast.

Yeah, yeah, Star Wars just

Yeah, yeah, Star Wars just isn't the same without puppets and sets. We've been through this in other threads. The fact is that we have to change all our models anyway, we cant stay with the old ones even if we wanted to. Skyrim Ice caves will be used for the smoother looking caves, but mold caves are overgrown and organic. Time to move with the times, 2014 not 2002.

If you want Morrowind caves, I'd recommend Morrowind.

If you want unique immersive caves, step right up and help with building Skywind caves.

Morrowind New tileset

Morrowind

New tileset textures when set to one colour, so people can have an ugly patch to make it look like Morrowind if they truly want

Ability to add variety and depth with textures. This will be the type of thing with Skywind

To say that they are lower quality, doesn't make sense, it cracks me up.

Oh the new screens are

Oh the new screens are looking much better now!

Guess you havn't got my point, I do not want 2002 morrowind caves. I want more caves like Addamasartus, which resamples morrowind style perfectly and looks by far better than any vanilla dungeon ever made. <- thats also the only way fitting the delicious exteriors.

I did not want to step on your toes, sorry for being a bit over the top with my previous post. You've stated more than once, that you want to keep the feeling of morrowind with updated assets, and they look a bit to much like skyrim to me. Thats all.

Yes I want unique immersive caves and yes I would like to help with skywind caves.

I did say in the OP Ignore

I did say in the OP

Ignore the horrid textures, they are used to show up top and bottoms and the pink L is to show where its left facing side is. Easy for development purposes, final texturing will come later.

I have to agree with 3Amt,

I have to agree with 3Amt, that Skyrim tileset even when modified still looks like Skyrim, totally changing the feel of caves in the imho wrong way from muddy to rocky. We can argue about 2014 and new age, but this doesn't change that fact.

I'd rather see Morrowind tileset being adjusted with higher poly models and added features rather than Skyrim caves. I believe they can look very good if done properly, with detailed models, textures and some applied shader fx.

Also where are going to find people to completely rebuild several dozens of caves? The experience of the past year shows that they are none. 3-4, maybe 5 doing interiors and landscaping from time to time, that's it.

Don't repeat mistakes of other big projects of setting unreachable goals. Properly rebuilding, cluttering and light overhauling 2-3 caves might take the same time as landscaping the whole region.

I admire your attempts and time spent on caves, but this is the wrong way for project. Only my personal opinion.

I'd rather see Morrowind

I'd rather see Morrowind tileset being adjusted with higher poly models and added features rather than Skyrim caves. I believe they can look very good if done properly, with detailed models, textures and some applied shader fx.

I guess the thing is who is going to do that? Its never going to happen. So we are going to cut as many corners as we can to get the project finished. As I say there is a good possibility that a lot of the members doing the bulk of the work wont be working on this forever.

Nav-meshing and testing has to be done, so we wont be sitting around on the possibility of somebody suddenly spending hundreds of man hours on building new cave tilesets. There are 122 models in all. Takers? No? None?

At the end of the day, I have the best grasp on what the caves actually look like, and you wont be thinking this is just Skyrim. Did you know that Fall Out has quite a similar titleset to Skyrim? Did anybody say oh Skyrim caves look just like Fall Out? You'll just have to go with the flow on this one, only one person stepping up for this work.

Just trying to relay the idea

Just trying to relay the idea that Skywind is suddenly not Skyrim:

Morrowind (actual)

Skywind

Morrowind

Skywind

But we WILL have all sorts of variations of cave textures. Being stuck on one look of ghost of Morrowind past is boring to say the least. Some of the mold caves will be a mossy rock, rather than just a muddy look. Caledera mine maybe a more mined form of rock, its still a mold cave in old Morrowind, but we have more imagination and ability to make it different, with Skyrim engine being easier to apply different textures.

happychappy wrote: Just

happychappy
Just trying to relay the idea that Skywind is suddenly not Skyrim:

Morrowind (actual)

Skywind

Morrowind

Skywind

But we WILL have all sorts of variations of cave textures. Being stuck on one look of ghost of Morrowind past is boring to say the least. Some of the mold caves will be a mossy rock, rather than just a muddy look. Caledera mine maybe a more mined form of rock, its still a mold cave in old Morrowind, but we have more imagination and ability to make it different, with Skyrim engine being easier to apply different textures.

Those to me look completely fine. They haven't lost the Morrowind feel, they just look upgraded.

They'd really get more

They'd really get more athmospheric if they were darker (as in almost no ambient light, since Morrowind caves have plenty of light sources anyway). I'm guessing that the matters of lighting are going to be done after the interior tilesets, still worth mentioning it ;)

No need to rebuild the whole

No need to rebuild the whole tileset, only improve the existing models. But honestly I don't know what is easier - improving meshes or rebuilding caves with a new tileset.

I only know for sure that completely overhauling dozens of caves will take a shit ton of time and several people working for months. That is unrealistic imho.

How new caves look is a matter of personal choice, and my opinion doesn't worth anything. But keep in mind that Skywind has around 1 year before Fallout4 will be released and all the attention will shift towards the new shiny toy, only die hard fans will stay. You are setting the very high goal, and I just don't see how it can be accomplished in a reasonable time with the current available resources.

he spent weeks on these

he spent weeks on these meshes, and what are you guys suggesting? that he just throw all this work in the toilet?

this will be finished and accomplished no matter what people say, we will make sure of it, afterall the old meshes has to go, and happy did a good job, this will be much better than those repetive ugly cave meshes from morrowind.

I see only improvements here

I see only improvements here and people still pushes themselves to complain just because it's not 100% what it looked like over 10 years ago?

But then again that's neither new nor surprising around here.

i understand the reason for

i understand the reason for the complaining and thrusting around of their impressive lore wangs and the wearing of nostalgia goggles, but lets weigh that up with what is possible in the allotted time.
the most efficient use of time is retexturing/colouring skyrim cave systems.
where possible we use new ones (ie if i'm allowed to spend time on west gash/azura coast caves in a few months)
and imho morrowind caves look like shit. though the layout was cool.

I'll be looking forward to

I'll be looking forward to seeing those new and improved caves in Skywind; Happy did some great work here!

At the very least we could improve the main-quest-specific caves and underground areas to bring them to the level of quality we desire. We can touch-up the rest if we deem that we have enough resources to do it :)

It takes about 1-2 hrs to

It takes about 1-2 hrs to integrate the new tileset per cave, depending on size and complexity. Of course we'd want a person to spend longer on doing their own detailing, but at the end of the day if that all they want to do, then job done.

I'm so ready to step up and

I'm so ready to step up and do this. I have had a lot of dungeon experience on top of landscaping, so when I'm done with the Ashlands, I'll give this a go. Great work Happy.

happychappy wrote: Just

happychappy
Just trying to relay the idea that Skywind is suddenly not Skyrim:

Morrowind (actual)

Skywind

Morrowind

Skywind

But we WILL have all sorts of variations of cave textures. Being stuck on one look of ghost of Morrowind past is boring to say the least. Some of the mold caves will be a mossy rock, rather than just a muddy look. Caledera mine maybe a more mined form of rock, its still a mold cave in old Morrowind, but we have more imagination and ability to make it different, with Skyrim engine being easier to apply different textures.

the skywind caves look good but it looks like the morrowind caves where mean't to look more like a natural cave then a mine which the skyrim caves look like.

[External image]

this image looks like what the morrowind guys where going for or something similar to it.

Next tileset, I think should

Next tileset, I think should keep the Morrowind fan boys a bit happier.

That's impressively well

That's impressively well done!

looks awesome happy. You

looks awesome happy. You should make another tile set similar but thats wider to, that would make the caves that much more morrwind-ish. other then that looks way awesome.

Can't change the shape,

Can't change the shape, brings in scaling problems. What you see is what you get.

I guess I'll survive then.

I guess I'll survive then. :)

as long as the connecting

as long as the connecting edges are the same, you can alter the middle a lot, like caves in, wider parts, bitts u have to squeeze through

Ravanna wrote: as long as the

Ravanna
as long as the connecting edges are the same, you can alter the middle a lot, like caves in, wider parts, bitts u have to squeeze through

Sort of like a connector/adaptor peace, yeah? Going from the base narrow to a wider cave piece, and vice versa? I like the sound of that! :)

3AMt wrote: BTW there is a

3AMt
BTW there is a cave near seyda neen which is cluttered with stones and stuff. That looked pretty awesome. I wish more caves would look like this one at the bittercoast.

I want more caves like Addamasartus, which resamples morrowind style perfectly and looks by far better than any vanilla dungeon ever made.

Addamasartus. I began work on that cave before Balmora, leaving it very much a WIP. The walls, floors, and ceilings have been hand-tiled by individual rock pieces and some larger flatter cliff pieces. It took hours to do what amounts to 20% of the total work in that one cave. That is the direction we are taking caves. These new pieces from HC aren't just going to be the new cave tileset, I'm going to use them to rebuild the caves, then use the same technique placing rocks around the walls. The pre-placed rocks and variety of floors and ceilings will cut my work time per cell almost in half.

BTW thanks

also check out abaelunmine

I'm excited to check out these new toys from HC

as long as the connecting

as long as the connecting edges are the same, you can alter the middle a lot, like caves in, wider parts, bitts u have to squeeze through

Morrowind has a lot of straight corridors, really due to lack of available models to break them up. There are more to play with, like moving slightly to one one side, but then you'd have to bring it back to connect again. Its about using the space you have to make tunnels seem more organic.

I could be wrong but I think

I could be wrong but I think most of the caves on Vvardenfell are actually lava tubes, which would explain their smoother and more rounded appearance.

[External image]

[External image]

[External image]

That being said, I like the set you made above better than vanilla Morrowind. It looks more organic. If you're doing any additional hallways or other cave sets, I think it would look cool if you incorporated some of the elements of lava tubes into them too.

I could look into basalt

I could look into basalt caverns near Azura's Coast. Shouldn't be too hard with current assets. Maybe I'll need some ceilings, wet basalts and black basalts, but I hope that's not too much to ask.

I tried playing with that

I tried playing with that sort of thing and it turned out quite well, it should look even better with the new basalt assets. I even fiddled with the idea of having a long, deep canyon with water at the bottom and a few rock formations that act as bridges from one side to the other. More of a crevice though, probably a bit wider. Something like this: http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2013/007/3/a/the_crevice_by_andreasrocha-d5qr2yr.jpg not as deep and fully made of Basalt. Something like this, even: http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/designpics/designpics1006/designpics100605214/7191184-crevice-in-lava-field-on-santiago-island-galapagos.jpg

remember, mold cave dev, that

remember, mold cave dev, that the new assets are an extra download of the latest dev release. Ping me if needed.

What I like about the

What I like about the Morrowind cave set is that while it is plain the segments are really just containers for all cave content. Their size and shape allow for the a lot of depth when used in combination with a high volume of rockforms. If used to its full potential, possible combinations are endless. While I would argue that all of the new models look better than the originals I think a plainer version would be better with the extraneous elements removed to be added later. While this requires additional time to place ferns and rocks, the result is better. It is the added elements that should really make these things come to life. I have made caves almost entirely of rocks. If the level designer needs a lower ceiling a cave ceiling model could be made for that purpose. If we want to streamline the process of cluttering thee things larger models could be made to come through the base of the cave pieces. These sets dont need to be asymmetrical or decked out because they should be serving only as containers for all the eye candy. They will also inevitably produce less variety unless used in conjuction with other rockforms which would cover their details anyway. Ideally the rocks and additional items should get the detail and these should be fairly plain with good texture (the bleached out cave looks amazing).

Ideas for new pieces: Additional pieces with holes in the top that can be combined with other rockforms to create narrow spaces for light or water to pass through. It would easily allow for dramatic lighting and open up some of the claustrophobic Morrowind interiors. If we want to keep the same old layouts this will be important. If the asymmetrical pieces are kept specially designed parts would need to be created since existing pieces would not be tileable.