Bows & Guards

I think that guards should have shortbows and/or crossbows, but not all the guards. So it gives the feel that every guard is unique. Some only have melee weapons, blade or blunt, one or two handed, while others also have ranged weapons. Longbows could be given to the guards patrolling on the walls, seeing as the have to eliminate threats from a distance.

"Not as portable"? What does that mean? Will it just weigh more?

I agree with TheBusStop at any rate. Guards should be diverse.

I think you move slower with a longbow drawn

Guards carry bows in all games to overcome the technical issue of pathfinding and still be able to punish a player. This prevents a player from fooling pathfinding AI by jumping on a rock, using levitate or some other means after commiting a crime and become invulnerable to guards. Diversity is not a question here, all guards must carry bows to prevent easy exploiting unless there is some other way to do so.

Story-wise, there are things called cliffracers on Vvardenfell. I would imagine guards charged with protecting their denizens to be amply prepared for such a threat. 

I would still love to see the archers on the towers, having only some shortsword to defend themselves - and the guards on the ground be a bit more "heavily" armed (bow or no bow).

Couldn't we figure out the way to make the "ground guards" prefer melee combat and "tower guards" to prefer using the bow? That should be rather easy, right?

Are there crossbows in skywind? it would be nice to see some guards carrying those. But ground guards should not be carrying longbows, only shortbows and if possible crossbows, because realistically longbows would hinder their mobility while chasing criminals. I think that longbows should be reserved for the guard archers in the towers and on the walls.

Yes it is easy to set using combat styles (spell usage too).

zilav

Guards carry bows in all games to overcome the technical issue of pathfinding and still be able to punish a player. This prevents a player from fooling pathfinding AI by jumping on a rock, using levitate or some other means after commiting a crime and become invulnerable to guards. Diversity is not a question here, all guards must carry bows to prevent easy exploiting unless there is some other way to do so.

This right here. In Skyrim/Oblivion when I fought a bandit or a guard that I knew would kick my ass, I just found some higher ground on top of a rock or something that I knew a guard/bandit wouldn't be able to jump on top of, and I pelted the guard/bandit with arrows. Now if that guard/bandit had some sort of bow, he would be able to shoot my ass too. Like for example, in Assassin Creed 4, if you climb a building, or stand on top of a building, the guards pull out their guns and start shooting you like crazy while you climb.

Also come on, in Morrowind of all places you'll want to carry around a bow if you're a guard. You know, Cliffracers.

Anyway, I figured we could give a bandit a mixture of throwing weapons and bows. And give the guards a mixture of Cross Bows and Bows.

in oblivion the are a bit stupid when u on a bit big rock the try to hit u but the cant because high difference in skyrim the atleast take up there bow ore run around to avoid getting hit by your bow ore spel if i remember correct i always found skyrim guards doing the best the can the wil not al  start just shooting at you whit there bows but also chase you around whit there swords

and unless the are battelmages i dont think the should use magic and crossbows isnt a common thing oblivion doesn't have them and in skyrim only a few vampire hunters use them  (u would think in a few 100 years the would invent gunpowder )

Hell, even in the earlier Assassin Creed games they'll still pelt you with rocks if they don't have a firearm or a bow.

Still, though, the longbow for wall archers and perimeter patrols while the town guards and patrols have shortbows/crossbows would be cool. Longbows would do more damage, weigh more, and take a few seconds longer to load/reload, shortbows wouldn't do as much damage, but they would weigh a lot less and reload really fast.

Crossbows would be the strongest, seemingly, though. It would back the most punch but take the longest to reload, and would likely weigh the same or more than a longbow... Though that all depends on the materials used.

I like the system that SkyRe uses for the ranged weapons in skyrim

Skyre guide about marksmanship

Longbows are slow and best used at huge ranges; they reward you for overdrawing the string, hitting moving enemies, hitting them right in the back, and keeping your distance. If you want to kill from far away with a small number of arrows, this is the way to go. Longbows are less suited for pure archers, as they prove ineffective once enemies get close.
Shortbows, on the other hand, are best used at mid and close ranges. They are faster, initially weaker, allow for way better movement and should be aimed at the enemies’ side for stagger. Perks allow them to hit harder when hitting multiple times in quick succession and to cripple enemies in close combat via a bash technique.
Crossbows don’t require much skill to wield - instead, they do require a decent weapon to be strong; thus the perks allow you to repeatedly reforge crossbows with enhancements for different situations. The same is true for bolts, which can be strengthened, then enhanced with different effects. Crossbows start stronger than other bows, but their damage doesn’t scale with perks directly. While regular bows require active positioning to be good, the majority of crossbow work takes place before actually entering battle.

And because crossbows don't require much skill, you'll find them more on npc's with little experience in marksmanship

Dwemer artifacts all legally belong to the emperor and it is technically illegal to have one. Plus, Dwemer crossbows ate rare and valuable; there wouldn't be enough (money or crossbows) to equip guards with them. If we're going to give guards crossbows, give the Great House guards those bonemold ones that that one guy was working on here. (Sorry, can't remember your name off the top of my head.)

Twisted Logic

Dwemer artifacts all legally belong to the emperor and it is technically illegal to have one. Plus, Dwemer crossbows ate rare and valuable; there wouldn't be enough (money or crossbows) to equip guards with them. If we're going to give guards crossbows, give the Great House guards those bonemold ones that that one guy was working on here. (Sorry, can't remember your name off the top of my head.)

In morrowind there was both dwemer-made and steel crossbows, to quote:

"The Dwemer crossbow is an ingenious device that permits someone with only modest training and skill to fire a missile bolt massive enough to penetrate heavy armor. The Imperial Legion's mass-produced version is somewhat less effective, and most Imperial missile troops and hunters use the more popular short and long bows."

Cor Angars

In morrowind there was both dwemer-made and steel crossbows, to quote:

"The Dwemer crossbow is an ingenious device that permits someone with only modest training and skill to fire a missile bolt massive enough to penetrate heavy armor. The Imperial Legion's mass-produced version is somewhat less effective, and most Imperial missile troops and hunters use the more popular short and long bows."

Only a handful of Dwemer crossbows appear outside of random leveled loot lists. The key word in your quote is "mass produced", implying that each Dwemer crossbow was likely handcrafted by an artisan. Not to mention that Dwemer weapons are limited in number and cannot be reproduced (Skyrim's game mechanics not  withstanding). Plus, Dwemer crossbow are significantly higher quality than steel and would make Great House guards far more dangerous than imperials. I still say either give them steel crossbows like the imperials have bonemold ones of similar quality.

The reason you could make Dwemer weapons in Skyrim was because people would complain if they couldn't make one kind of weapon/armor in-game and shouldn't be indicative of the general populace. In addition, the fact that the Imperials, who have access to the greatest scientific minds in Tamriel, were unable to successfully reproduce a Dwemer crossbow helps my case. If it were so easy to replicate Dwemer technology, don't you think the Imperials would have done it long ago?

And the fact that there is a bonemold bow exists lends credence to the idea that a crossbow of bonemold is possible. It would not have to be made entirely out of bonemold, either. A steel crossbow is not made entirely out of steel, that would be silly; it has components made of various materials, especially wood.

Magic-using Telvanni guards is a brilliant idea. And I commend you on your knowledge of second era history. ;)

The idea was brought up, and some wonderful concept art was made.  There was talk of Dres guards escorting slaves in southern Vvardenfell using the 'prisoner' scripts from Skyrim, and even talk of a Twin Lamps quest line - potentially. 

I had suggested there could be a Dres diplomat in Mournhold diplomacing it up with Helseth, with a couple body guards in the special bonemold should it be made.

He's talking about a form of bonemold by Devolist, which appears to be based on some Tamriel Rebuilt concept art.

Denevir

Temple enchanters favor healing and protections spells. Redoran enchanters favor wounding missile loads and shield spells. Hlaalu like weapon enchantments and various spell rings. Imperials use a wide array of weapon and ring damage enchantments. But the masters of enchantments are the Telvanni. They use all effects, often several combined in one item, but they especially like items that summon creatures or magical weapons and armor.

Maybe equip guards with custom-enchanted weapons and make them more unique?

 

Heh, Telvanni magic guards remind me of those guards in the Arcane University. Honestly, I wouldn't be against giving Telvanni guards Flame, Storm, or Ice Atronic summon spells. It would probably piss off players who commit crimes, and make the game a bit harder, but I kinda don't give a shit about making the game too hard.

Oh, and Hlaalu weapon enchants? Umm, some of the guards in Balmora carry Jinkblades, which is kinda mean, but pretty damn funny.

Well, if you break the law, you should expect a hard time, so...

That could work, actually.  They carry ebony maces in Morrowind, but this was before Tribunal and there were no scimitar-type models.

Odd that Trueflame and Hopesfire were Dwemer weapons, but looked more like an ornate Yokudan pair.

If it's not too late to contribute I would say that the most appropriate projectile attacks for guards IMO are as follows:

Ordinators should cast fireballs and the like IMO. I saw they already do this in Skywind, so excellent :p

Telvanni guards: shock magic, maybe sometimes frost, but I feel shock fits them best. It's also handier to fight fast moving targets or targets that are far away (such as levitating enemies). Maybe they could also cast paralysis spells? That way they could make you fall out of the air and die a horrible death when levitating :p It might make them a tad overpowered though. In morrowind they had bows, but it's the house of magic. I think the main reason they had bows in morrowind was the unability to regenerate magicka. That said, I never commited crimes in Telvanni towns because of those pesky Greater Bonewalkers.

Hlaalu guards: I like crossbows for these too. Bows could work to. Definitely mundane weapons, no magic.

Redoran guards: Crossbows don't feel right IMO. Too modern (yes, I know, Dwemer made them). Longbows? Magic obviously would be the worst solution.

Imperials: steel crossbows, but morrowind also had archers patrolling the battlements (they wore medium armor and shortswords I believe), at least in Ft. Moonmoth with longbows.

Shortbows are ideal for Ashlanders if you ask me. I always imagined Ashlanders ambushing people with shortbows while atop Guars.

Crossbows are also well suited for mercenaries, Cun in Tel Branora is one fine example. I also always figured it'd be a weapon used to protect trading caravans.

Shortbows also seem appropriate for scouts (regardless what house they belong to) in my eyes.

In any case: no guards in any city should be unable to use missile/long-range weapons, as said above. I think players attempting to exploit rock formations should receive a good pelting.

 

Another problematic aspect of morrowind was named guards in some towns. I recall Gnisis had named Orc guards and many, if not most Telvanni cities had named guards too. They should be replaced when they die, obviously. In morrowind, you killed 'em once and you were untouchable in those towns for life.

I don't agree with the Telvanni guards being able tobuse magic, any more than the janitorial staff of CERN would be able to operate the Large Hadron Collider.  The guards are hired help, or slaves.  If they were masters of magic, they wouldn't be guards but actual wizards or witches.

Same with the Indoril Ordinators.  Aside from the ones at the upper echelons, like the Hands of Almalexia, these guys are just religious zealots and thugs.  They're not especially smart, and there's no reason to believe they're all gifted spellcasters.  Well equipped, certainly.  Moderately well trained in martial skills, of course.  But the Telvanni wizards and the disenfranchised witches and liches and spell-slingin' bitches be all frightenin' and powerful because they're still relatively rare.  Not every Tom Dick and Harry can cast magic all over the place.  With the notable exception of the Altmer.

I understand the sentiment, but do note that ALL Telvanni guards had the ability to summon greater bonewalkers. It's a spell that requires quite some skill in conjuration. So would exchanging that with a simple long-range destruction spell be really that bad? Or would having them summoning flame atronachs who do the fireballing for them be better?

The Arcane University guards in Oblivion all could cast a few spells, and I really don't feel magic is as exotic as you think it is in the Elder Scrolls Universe. I also don't think giving them access to 1 long-range destruction spell disenfranchises great wizards who know 15 spells or something like that. Also do note that we're talking about Dunmer, who are at least as good at destruction magic as Altmer.

I'd give fireballs to Ordinators because Ordinators aren't your average "Tom, Dick and Harry". They're an elite force, having endured long years of training and indoctrination. Also, they could cast Destruction spells in Morrowind anyway as demonstrated by this quote: "In battle they can be quite a challenge, even when compared to other guards, since they possess better armor and can cast Destruction spells." (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Ordinator) Poison magic to be exact, but seeing as that type of magic no longer exists I feel fire fits them best (because of their temperament, note that this is just a personal opinion). If they were really your average joe, why the heck would they even equip them with ebony maces? It would be a feast for bandits: lowly trained guards, relatively few in number with enormously valuable gear. As an elite force however, bandits would drop dead even THINKING of trying to kill a few of these. I really think these guys should individually be able to *insert non-consensual sex here* any player of a low to moderate level with relative ease (also note that if they cannot, lower level players will simply murder these to obtain ebony weapons and get quick cash+skill). In short: I think they should be guards, but stronger, smarter, faster, scarier and players should soil their pants when they turn hostile.

I'm not sure about the magic's (I really don't know enough about it to judge it properly) But I really would like to see the different kinds of bows (shortbows, longbows and or crossbows) on the non magic using guards (and available in the game in general) and then implemented in the ways discussed above.

Thermocrius said that he already knows how to implement it and that he just needs models and clearance for it.

Guards with personalities, professions, classes (melee, archer, rare mages) always > that anonymous crowd.

Good luck getting voice actors for all those personalities.

So basically my opinion is:

Hlallu foot guards will have the steel crossbows because they are the house with closer relationship with the empire. The sharpshooters will have the same gear they had in morrowind.

Redoran foot soldiers didn't have any ranged weapon and there were no sharpshooters in this house, so they should have a chitin shortbow and some chitin arrows (or because they are a house that prefers melee weapons and fighting,so if someone does throwing weapons they could have chitin javelins)

Telvani foot soldier should have a destruction spell, not a powerfull one, but something that can damage from afar(i suggest something like firebolt). They should have magic spells because when the player joins the house telvanni after a quest or two they receive a spell and you are still a hireling (tier 0) while the guards are lawmen  (tier 3) so i wouldn't be admired if they know a few simple spells like firebolt. Telvanni sharpshooter seem to be a bit OP (and are definitely better than the hlallu) so they should have Bonemold bow and iron or chitin arrows to balance the things a bit more

 

 

 

Or a rather more elegant solution, change guard such that he doesn't have any perks in archery and modify his ai such that he doesn't like to pull out the bow, and vice versa for the archer.