[WIP] Balmora Redesign

I suggest that on the outskirts that the river be cluttered with items that suggest fishing. It would add some life to the area, and while there are walls, not everything has to occur within. Architecturally, all I can suggest is that in the corridors (alleyways?) between houses, show some wear and tear, cracks, dirt, graffiti, etc. Give a shady feel to the area some how, it is the most likely place in Balmora for shady business considering how open air it is. Also, lamp posts in open air areas such as outside Ravirr's shop. Lighting is an important issue. I understand these focus on clutter, but these still would add a good deal of life to Balmora.

Just an idea I'm sure everyone has thought about and already come up with, but... I definitely think the idea of "quadrants" would be a great idea. I remember a Morrowind mod of long ago that added different themes to each tier of Balmora. After all, Balmora is THE capital of House Hlallu and if memory serves me correctly is supposed to be largest trade city in western Vvardenfell. It should reflect that grandeur, rivaled only by Ald-Ruhn, Sadrith Mora, and of course, Vivec.

So about the tiered districts: for example, the mod I remember filled the eastern-most tier (where Cauis lives) with garbage and clutter, showing it as clearly an unsavory part of town. It also added boards on the roofs, so agile characters could easily jump up and across various roofs on that side of the river.

So it would seem logical if there was a wealthy Hlallu section with a vastly glorified Hlallu HQ (western part of town), a clearly defined market area (with a few outdoor stalls), the main street would be on both sides of the river (and would include additional lighting and clutter, including docks and river-focused items), and then the eastern most tier would of course be a semi-shanty town. The temple could also have it's own district (perhaps a large courtyard, an Empire-operated Mara-themed healing shack, a garden, etc).

Allow me to suggest this:

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werfkelder_(Utrecht)#mediaviewer/Bestand:Utrecht_-_Oude_Gracht_en_Hamburgerbrug_1900.jpg

These lowered parts could potentially house shops like they used to in the depicted city of Utrecht. 
In Morrowind, Balmora is characterized by its canal (the river Odai.) Its a rather unremarkable sight in the vanilla game though. The suggested walkways could be places for small boats to dock and fishermen to fish. What do you think?
 

Is expanding the river slightly an option?

The most important thing, as I see it, is to ensure there is enough housing in the city to support its population to allow NPC schedules to be applied in a meaningful way.  The same is true for all the towns and villages.

thegentlemancaller, How about this? Most of the shops are together in a circle, maybe outdoor stalls, forges, etc. could be added outside each one. It would make the area less empty, make interactions more visible among npc's, and make it seem more like a thriving market, which hlaalu is. Temporary stalls could be added for portable merchants (i.e. khajiits from skyrim). Here is an idea, red is merchant stalls, green is a central floral arrangment, a tree or other centerpiece. The purple is for possible temporary moving merchants.[External image]

That looks great! I sort of see it like Whiterun's merchant square... Which you have spot on. It should really hit the nail on the head that Balmora is Vvardenfell's largest eastern economic hub.

Edit: I don't want to jump the gun and overstep my bounds, since I'm not a modeler. I'm 95% lurker with 5% idas offered... :) We'll have to see what ziegel999, Ravanna, and Thermocrius have to say on the matter, since it looks like they'll be heading this one up.

Edit 2: ziegel999 has already spoken up! Woohoo!

I've seen that first concept on google images before. I think it takes things too far in a Middle-Eastern direction perhaps.

Then again, that might be the area you'd be looking at for a new Balmora... Hmm.
I hope some of those talented sketchers can make something even more beautiful. 

And I'd be grinning from ear to ear if my suggestion is heard [External image]
I really think those lowered areas(don't know their name) that allow easy access to the river could house a few shops/fishermen and serve as mooring for boats(which can't happen if the walls are high as hell.

The primary difficulty will be the actual expansion of Balmora -- how much can the city realistically expand? Also, we want it to be playable, and too many NPC or too much "city" could prove difficult, especially if it take's place in the open world (and not in a closed cell).

It should be closed off, but how to do it... grates maybe for rivers...

Anywho, here is the map of Balmora [External image]

I totally agree a slightly larger Balmora would be awesome, but is there enough room to expand?  If I remember correctly, it is closed off on the west and east sides by mountains.  And if we wanted to widen the river, that would leave us even less room.  Can we widen the space between the mountains to allow more room? Would that mess up Fort Moonmoth/Dwarven Ruin to the east?  Anything on the west to worry about?  Or do we just expand Balmora north and south along the river? A little of both?

Well there is quite a lot of room between Balmora and Moonmoth/Arkngthand but what worries me is that Eloth's landscaping will have to be redone... to what extent, I don't know, it depends how much it expands. What if we had a multi-level Balmora with the bottom level being the slummy part or something? (even just on one side, say the West side).

LA, we could divert the river to put the majority of houses on one side, adding cramped living space and a lack of breathing room, aka our west side slums. On the other side we could keep a few houses, replace the houses of a few people with larger almost manor-like houses, and add more merchants, many having small outdoor stalls like in Whiterun or solitude with lots of trees and pottery. Also, Since a prison is needed, just add a cellar to a guard tower.

Yours Truly

LA, we could divert the river to put the majority of houses on one side, adding cramped living space and a lack of breathing room, aka our west side slums. On the other side we could keep a few houses, replace the houses of a few people with larger almost manor-like houses, and add more merchants, many having small outdoor stalls like in Whiterun or solitude with lots of trees and pottery. Also, Since a prison is needed, just add a cellar to a guard tower.

Sounds good!

if you're going to expand the canal width, push it towards the poor side, so we can cramp one side and have the other more like original.

Cool! I suggest that the farms be just outside the walls, that the temple be pulled inward, and that alleys be used similar to those seen on the left side of the picture. Will the whole river be expanded? how big can the ships get? one option is to make a small seaport where the river meets the sea, and use canoes and caravans as transport... Also move the guard towers slightly closer to the walls. Besides those small suggestions, this looks great Rav.

ziegel999 idea looks great

A thing to seriously think about with Balmora is that its a trade hub where large ships CAN'T moor, because of the structure of the bridges etc. I quite like these bridges myself, so I'd say most of the trade would be done with small boats/by land caravans. Right?

 

I can see many free, unused places in and around Balmora. It can be used to depict Balmora as real trade town.

1. Desertous market place. Tents and pavillions can be placed here, and it should'nt be in one instance. There should be some competition.
2. Rich  district. It may be supplemented by park/garden at least.
3. Hills. It may be changed for some area for siltstriders or caravans with guars. Also there is good place for siltstrider descent to river.
4. Commoners district. I think will be good to make it more vertical - so 3-5 levels of buildings can be located here in the form of steps.
5,7. Wilderness. This big town can house some slums. People of this district can work as potters, builders and shepherds.
6. Temple district. Another good place for poor people, but this variant can be more "temple"/"religion" burthen.
8. Mountain area. Good position for observation place and maybe some shacks (or penthouse). It need some serpantine road/stairway to get here.
9. Wilderness. May be egg-miners and gondoliers/fishermans district with inn and port/bay (however there is bridge to south of it) for people visiting Balmora from the south.

What if we made one side a favela?

The walls on the south side could be pushed down near zone 6.

@LASentry: i think if they can afford to follow the style of house - they are not poor. They are commoners, not poor.
Better to add some poor districts (with lumber shacks like in Gnaar Mok) outside the walls.
Anyway population of vanilla town is very small.
Will be great if we raise pop of commoners district - it's possible to add +2 levels of houses if they will be located as steps and if streets would be really thin (more even like many houses with common stairways).



@zakkattakk14: decorated Balmora walls separate poor districts from rich districts. Old town from town of immigrated n'wahs.
Team can add some simple-wooden defensive walls outside of poor district.

I feel like a great way to liven the city, especially the center would be to expand/widen the river slightly, along with the bridges  and place a vast, almost sprawling bazaar of small merchants along the long stretching bank/dock thing next to the river. Maybe along the sides of the river docks there could be ladders where small kayaks/boats from local farmers/artisans carry their goods from upstream/downstream. The abundance of business, pervading perhaps even into the housing districts, would greatly reflect their capitalistic nature.

Not sure how it's possible to make port in Balmora. River looks like very shallow one (at least for ship), and have two blocking bridges to the south. May be better to create separate location on island seashore, connected with wide road.

Balmora really needs some place for overlook like alysander said. Btw. What about to make rich district a bit higher sth like this (it's about height not look)

IMHO it will be too much work for modellers. I am about some district with rise of land, not height of buildings.

Gonna post it with image instead of link, since everyone seems to be doing that :D 

[External image]
I really think adding something like this is the only way to allow boats to be interacted with in some way. It would also allow for sewer entrances(if those are planned) or shops for the poorer folk. Especially nice locations for shady bars.

Another example:
[External image]

To make the bazaar more spectacular, I recommend that one of the inns nearby be used as a merchants inn so to speak, unless we add more actual houses. At any rate, some outdoor stalls with fruit, farm crops, fish, even imports from Cyrodil and Skyrim such as Nordic drinks and such.

Everythng is cool, but port... is bad idea i think. odai is small quiet river. Guars and Sitls more comfortable.

Would it be ok with just fishing boats? And if we want to make it a trading hub why not have a 'stables' kinda thing for pack guars. Then we could have trade caravans coming in and out of the town.

As for those overlooks, Eloth's landscape update includes them.

Slums should be real shithole in balmora. Poorest of the poor and danger. Maybe like favela on some steep slope with small houses (made of whatever) and narrow streets.

For temple district I will add some gardens and money making stuffs like little shops with devotional articles, saints statues with donation places money hungry priests etc. Of course beggars really fit here.

Maybe in Mountain area we can add mansion which player could buy?

And about port I don't think it fits here maybe only place for small boats.

Has it been decided if the cities (such as Balmora) will be open or closed? I know from what I've seen the conversation has gone back and forth.

I think the desire is to keep them open like in vanilla Morrowind, but the engine requirements may require them to be closed. Not sure about that, though.

I ask because that will obviously influence the capabilities of this endeavor.

I think that open cities would be great, but would require the players to have a better than average PC. The main reasons for cities being closed in Skyrim is for consoles I'd think. Right?

Unfortunately, Skywind is a mod and will only be playable on PCs. It's unique in structure, however, as it requires the player to own both Morrowind and Skyrim (as it uses assets and components from both).

As great as open cities would be, it definitely presents some potential technical issues:

1.) Vanilla Skywind is already known to require more processing power than vanilla Skyrim, and we all know that the biggest drains on processing is the open world component of Elder Scrolls games. Open world cities would only require additional processing power than many average PC gamers may not have.
2.) Open cities may also have issues with the 4GB threshold. I don't know if Skywind has found a way to circumvent that, but something to consider (especially with those running high-graphics).
3.) Open cities could lead to unnecessary NPC death, which did happen on rare occasion in Morrowind and would result in broken quests. Something else to consider.

I'm not sure what the penultimate verdict would be, but I personally have leaned towards closed cities a la Oblivion and Skyrim, for the sole sake of stability. I love immersion and would love to keep the completely open world component in place, but I'm just not sure how idealistic that may be.

Who knows, maybe it's not all (as I'm not a technical guy, just one who throws out ideas every now and then)!

We have levitation. How do u want to solve that problem? Invisible wall ?

no, I think someone has given the idea of putting above the walls an effect that transports you to another worldspace similar to what happens in skyrim caves, so when you try to pass the walls you are transported to the town worldspace without having to activate doors or being stopped by an invisible wall.

I wonder if open cities would be that much of a problem on modern PC's though. I mean, on an Xbox360, sure, but decent PCs? 

I guess that all depends on the public Skywind is aiming for, the system specs if you will.

If I could step in, I'd like to point out that I used to play Skyrim on an average laptop. Not very powerful at all. Open cities mods were very useable on it and I never experienced any issues at normal graphics.

While closing off Ald'ruhn and the like isn't a big stretch, this is Balmora we're talking about. It's a big, open merchant town. While I understand the reason for wanting to close it off, I feel like if we did that then we would lose a lot of Balmora's appeal. 

That's good to know, as I've been playing Skyrim on PC with pretty intense graphics.

I think smaller settlements (ie, Hla Oad) are fine, but larger cities (Ald-Ruhn, Sadrith Mora, Balmora) pose more of a performance threat. Especially Vivec -- which is being enclosed as is (at least in walls, not sure about world space -- not sure what will happen there).

Either way, I think Satchboogie has a good idea that could allow for a lot of buildings and properties in a relatively small space (vertical as opposed to horizontal. This would require deepening the river or raising the ground to some degree, which I think would be possible.

We'll see what the actual modders manage to do! :)

I think that the river should be widened to allow boats to go through, and the bridges might have to be raised, and i really liked this setup for the town that Alysander made(picture below). The Temple district should include statues of gods with people doing sermons like that one annoying guy in whiterun (forgot his name). I think that there should be more flowers also like in Suran, make it more colorful perhaps. But these are just my opinions so yeah. [External image]

I think we should go to closed city. Markets, temple garden city it sound like a lot of assets. Btw. silt raider should be inside or outside in that case. BTw. Why we can't do stress test to find out if we need that?

I think closed city is worst way. If city would be big as on my plan - it would be on 3-4 cells,
player cannot see so many objects to make game too slow.
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EDIT: i tested it ^. When player is here - Balmora even not loading yet.
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Specific on Northern part of Balmora : i can make some start arranging here, however CK interface/work is awful.
I want to specialize this part of town on building, pottery and mining limestone & clay (all of this connected kind of work).
More work to NPCs => more life to town => more plausibility to world
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If someone will be interested - i will give it to him/her. Any ideas welcomed to comment.
Models/objects required: clay deposit, limestone deposit. Off course some potters crafting staff.
Do someone planned to make bigger shacks? Or better Shack-kit?