[WIP] Balmora Exterior Redesign (Iceflame)

Not sure if tribal geology inflicted. More like this is primitive name for city/town.

Most of even tech advanced cities have old names, related to myth beings (Los Angeles), native toponims(Manitoba) and so on.
I know city names related to geology only for USSR.
---
RL 'stone_wood' is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsingy_de_Bemaraha_Strict_Nature_Reserve
But that is unrelated. We have this forms more as reefs around Sheogorad.

@alysander

I don't agree with u. I know many examples from all over the world related to geology like:

more known:

Petra, greek - rock

Machu Picchu, quechua - old peak

and from my country:

related to ore mining, named "ruda" some of them are really old.

related to "stone", named "kamieniec", some examples.

related to "mountain", named "góra", some examples

and many, many more.....

This names not changed over hundreds or even in some examples over thousand years. So, I think you are wrong.

@Ice

I'm not sure about petrified wood, it sounds too obvious, but maybe sth like that:

[External image]

and how it formed

[External image]

Sth which was created by weathering. Which means it has the same color and texture as surroundings rocks.

1) that reference is awesome : would be very nice to have piece of such "wood"
                                              or such as in my reference (need only retex of existing reefs).
2) your examples of names are irrelevant : much simpler than that case. Hwvr can work with previous oblivious case.

yeah can we not invent an entire new set of rocks for just one town, thanks, I'm not getting any younger.

Let the master work with what he had. Stop throwing out these ridiculous suggestions please. Some of us want this game to be done at some point. Time to get crackin'. Every new model we make (we as in Ravanna and a few others) is days or weeks of more work. 

So, as far as I know, I'm the only modeler developing Balmora atm.  So Far I have the canal models done.  I may make some pieces allow for a sewer entrance.  Balmora is now separate from the world map, and in it's own world space, so It can allow for much more detail :).  I've created a fairly large palette for Iceflame to work from.  I'm liking the Ideas put forward in this post.  I like the Idea of a more dense Balmora, which is why I've created pieces that will allow for an expansion of the river.  Small offshoots that can feed back into the main stream.  Ultimately it's up to the landscaping artist which pieces he want's to implement.

U didn't understand me guys. If I make suggestion it doesn't mean "IT HAS TO BE DONE NOW, BECAUSE THIS IS MY IDEA!!111oneone", ice will decide if it is "ridiculous" idea or not. It is not worth to implement then it will be simply skipped. Anyway we have already done assets. 1 2 3 4 5 it was more about scale. It doesn't mean it will be polluted everywhere like vanilla sheo, just some remains to justify name.But if it would be not implement I don't mind.

Second thing is that those names sometimes means sth like:

ald- - (adj.) first, elder. Ald'ruhn. [Aldmeris]
Source: Pocket Guide to the Empire
-ruhn - (n.) home (lit. hearth-hall). Ald’ruhn. [Dunmeri]
Source: Savant’s Notes on Vvardenfell

and

sadrith - (n.) mushroom. Sadrith Mora. [Dunmeri]
Source: TES3:Morrowind
mora - (n.) forest, wood. Balmora. [Aldmeri]
Source: TES3:Morrowind

Ah, the age old question that has been brought up time and time again...

"Will some cities exist in their own worldspace or not?"

maybe the manors could have a short wall and be separate too, so that the main town can stay in the main worldspace...

Balmora may end up being in a separate world space.  The impression I got from Ravanna is that the whole city would be separate, and we would create closed off walls.  I'll wait for the final verdict before I model the walls.

In 2002 we could afford to have open city, would be really pity if in 2014-15 we don't.

 

alysander, in 2002 the city was far less cluttered and detailed and graphically intensive than this one will be

Also if the city is separate, we can hopefully make it bigger than it can be in the main worldspace.  On a side note, we can make the city bigger by putting buildings on the side of cliff faces as suggested before.  I like this idea  I did something similar a while back with the far cry 2 editor.  Sadly, I still don't have the map

I'll add my two sense into the ring and have my opinion sway closer to closing off certain cities for the sake of performance, most specifically in terms of framerate as some did state the new cluttering objects and material could constrain the engine and bump the system specs requirement up. However that is not to say post release that some modders could reopen it via an optional mod (or a feature located in the installer for higher end PC's), so to allow the ascetic feel and performance for the mid-to-highish PC's. As an example Skyrim had closed cities and modders are working or completed an open city mod already, so it might not be a big deal to temporarily close off cities until post release for an open city Skywind mod to be produced.

There are other things to think about with open cities besides whether or not those with low spec computers can play the mod, the most important being the limitations of Skyrim's engine. You can only push it so far before instability threatens.

Well that was another point I was going to go for, I'm sure it is physically (digitally?) possible to push the engine to allow open (detailed) cities, but would it really be a good idea to then have to deal with the instability it could generate?

Also I'm not saying don't do it so the low end PC's can play, I simply was stating I don't know pushing the engine for a small (but nice) feature such as open cities would be worth bumping up the system spec requirements, which would throw off mid-end PC players to have to own a high end PC or sacrifice graphical fidelity. I fully understand them being open for nostalgia (as I am an old Elder Scrolls fan) but I don't feel it would hinder the game that bad, rather it could produce much better FPS for most of the community that wants to play. I just feel performance should take priority over little things such as open cities until post-release. (Sorry for long post)

P.S Areas like Vivec, Balmora, Ald-ruhn, Red Mountain?, and other large community detailed oriented places should run in there own world space.

I'm checking back here every day for updates, I absolutely love what you're doing with the city, my favourite in-game city is shaping up wonderfully. This is a great example of what Skywind should be doing - not merely providing a simple graphical/engine update, but using imagination and design to expand on the ideas and, when possible, add more depth, detail and beauty to the world.

Just want to point out that "stone wood/forest" can also simply be a metaphor , you know since it's the city with the most buildings like a " forest of stone"

how to solve obvious problems with levitation/jumps?
can you return Balmora in original worldspace later (as option for contemporary PC)?

I like that entrance a lot. Initially I was a bit concerned about the move to a separate worldspace mostly because of the worldspace doors in Skyrim being particularly lackluster, but that one looks very nice indeed. :D 

Also, like Alysander said, what will happen with levitation? I can tell that a lot of players will try and levitate over the wall and then see nothing since Balmora is in a different worldspace...

do source/headspring of river will be included?

Silt strider port could be immediately outside the gate of the city instead.

Hey Ice, what I think you could do is add some shacks/homes on the outer side of the wall as well. It would make the city feel much less desolated, and is natural for medieval/ancient towns that had fortifications and were economically flourishing, to eventually have buildings spill outside of the wall (and then an outer wall was built, that's why many medieval towns had layers of fortifications).

[External image]

That would make the shift between worldspaces feel much less sudden, and the town much more a part of the outer worldspace.

Instinctively I'd be against the idea of a separate worldspace but bigger and more detailed cities is definitely more important than what would be little more than a symbolic change. Positivity and optimism.

By the way, does this mean that your previous work will have to be redone or will you simply be able to import things how they were and then continue to build?

Guys -- how are you going to handle the whole levitation component with closed cities?

This has been talked and talked about multiple times, in multiple threads, and every time we chase our tails -- despite the conversations, there hasn't been a firm fix on how to handle the closed cities aspect.

Open, closed -- either way it feels like a big sacrifice.

I'm genuinely curious -- what solution have you proposed to make Balmora a closed city and what's been the logic to run with that (besides "we can have more in a closed city").

The reason I ask is mainly out of curiosity -- but the decisions made here will impact quite a few other settlements, and will pose a HUGE problem with the levitation spell.

Nalur

Just want to point out that "stone wood/forest" can also simply be a metaphor , you know since it's the city with the most buildings like a " forest of stone"

Good point, sth like Sana in Yemen

[External image]

Of course I'm not talking in that scale like that, but that from some distance it looks like "stone forest". I couldn't find better example, sorry.

Pros Open Balmora: Nostalgic factor, no burden by the levitation situation.

Pro Closed Balmora: More NPC's, more clutter, more and landscape detail.

I feel you should lean towards closed to host more townsfolk and clutter, but it should remain your choice. 

Still overall kind of conflicted, but if I get too far into closed Balmora, there is no going back.

Definitely conflicted. I feel you, man! I want it to be closed cities so badly, as I know that there are more opportunities to get creative with them. But going that route also presents a slew of problems: levitate, limited graphics capabilities, etc.

I want to change levitation anyway.  There are several good reasons Oblivion and Skyrim ditched that spell.  I would keep it in, but change it around to be more restricted.

Vivec is definitely going to be closed.  If one city is closed, more than one may as well be closed.  Don't keep it open just for the sake of levitation - we can change that spell's behavior to fit our needs.

Is it not possible to have an invisible wall that transfers you into the city's worldspace, like cave entrances use?  Seems to me something like that would solve the levitation/wall jumping issue.

Ice is it possible to allow mounts to travel between doors at all? If not then you could move the stable outside the city and then as some other people suggested make a small slum also outside the walls to compensate around the stable. I really feel more geared towards closed cities as well and the cave transition above the walls to allow fast travel into the city via levitation is a good idea and if not maybe you could have a rule like levitation is not allowed near major settlements due to local house laws.   

Just to clarify House laws could disallow levitation due to privacy reasons for the local guilds, town residence and even the house itself. Like in real life where drones are really looked down on as they can spy on people due to them being able to survey the skies.

@Abyss
> disallow levitation
= this isnt natural, right or beauty way. It wuld be look even more stupid and artificial than in Almalexia.

@SmiteHammer
> I want to change levitation anyway.  There are several good reasons Oblivion and Skyrim ditched that spell.  I would keep it in, but change it around to be more restricted.
= It should be high-level, but it should be. Alteration spells = 10% of Morrowind charm.
= What really can be restricted? I think Almsivi&Divine Interventions - they are too powerful for easy spell.

If smbd think that closed cities is still good idea - I think for start team need some sophisticated trigger script to transport player/cliffracers from/to adequate points. This is simple mathematically, but i am not sure if this possible in game scripts - you need to get player 3dposition and transport it into specific place in other world.



@IceFlame
> extra space for additional functionality instead
= yeah. That's the right way. Some outsiders buildings, poor shacks districts, caravan square, clay&lime quarry...
You can growth Balmora even to Caldera :)

> would probably mean scrapping the gatehouse
= why? it can be good place for sleeping guards for example.

I want to change levitation anyway.  There are several good reasons Oblivion and Skyrim ditched that spell.  I would keep it in, but change it around to be more restricted.

Vivec is definitely going to be closed.  If one city is closed, more than one may as well be closed.  Don't keep it open just for the sake of levitation - we can change that spell's behavior to fit our needs.

If we know for a fact that there will be other closed cities, then by all means, run with Balmora being closed -- we can finally see Balmora in all it's glory as it was meant to be! :)

Despite it being lore unfriendly, you can just say that Balmora, Sadrith Mora, Ald-Ruhn, Vivec, and Ebonheart are all closed as part of a Crimson Treaty or something. Teleportation spells (such as Mark and Recall) and Levitation spells are simply off-limits and deactivated within the city proper(s). The Great Houses and Imperial presence all committed to this pact, which allows them all an even playing field politically -- thus, no Great House can squash the other using such magical devices, and the Imperial presence would also remain intact and unchallenged. The only loophole is the almsivi/divine intervention, since it provides political and religious protection, primarily for weary travelers.

The only exception would be Mark and Recall on player-owned property -- if you outright own property, your property is exempt, and Mark/Recall/Levitation can be used within your player-owned home.

Something like this can be wrote up and distributed in-game. It would require some fine-tuning, but you can get the gist of it below:

In 3E426, just after the great Tax Revolt of Balmora, both Great House Hlallu and the Imperials of Ebonheart first came up with the above concept. House Hlallu, fearing further tax-oriented unrest (and perhaps a fear of political assassinations from the Telvanni), initially came to the Duke Dren and the Imperials and presented the concept of a magic pact outlawing teleportation spells in major urban areas. The Imperials, general newcomers to the province, heartily agreed with the Hlallu -- the Imperials wanted to ensure their foothold remained unchallenged (as they've felt a strong pushback from the Redoran and anti-Imperial ashlanders, both of who were potential risks to the Imperial endeavors). Seeing the chaos of the tax uprising a year prior, the two factions sat down and created the Crimson Pact. This charter outright outlawed teleportation and levitation spells within the cities of Balmora, Sadrith Mora, Ald-ruhn, Ebonheart, and Vivec. Under Trebonius' eye, the Mage's Guild charter of Vvardenfell agreed to enforce the magical field required to enforce the pact, but only if they were allowed sole rights to a Vvardenfell-specific teleportation services.

With the backing of Duke Dren, House Hlallu, the Imperial presence, and the Mage's Guild were easily able to convince both the Houses Indoril and Dres. Great House Indoril agreed with gusto, as long as Vivec city was protected under this anti-magic treaty. House Dres, who had little presence in the Vvardenfell district of Morrowind, agreed only if anti-slavery measures were enacted in Vvardenfell - namely, with the mandatory introduction of fatigue-draining slave bracers.

The Crimson Treaty was finalized and presented to both House Telvanni and House Redoran. When the idea was presented to the Telvanni, however, Master Neloth greatly encouraged the idea, much to the surprise of Hlallu and Imperial representatives. Neloth and the Telvanni felt that it would keep non-Telvanni out of Telvanni settlements, further allowing them to isolate themselves to their own vices (and would explain/enforce the concept of why Telvanni towers require levitation spells to traverse).

Last, the Redoran were hesitant and stood their ground against the concept -- although they stood opposed, the declining powers of House Redoran only created a situation in which the Redoran had no choice but to comply, or be forced to endure greater tax tarifs on the import/export of glass (which was a vital commidity for the Redoran people, in particular the Bouyant Armingers). The Viper family of the Redoran staunchly refuses this pact to this day, feeling that the Redoran should have stood their ground and fought the pact.

By late 4E426, the treaty was formally adopted into the Imperial charter and, starting on 1st Frostfall, were officially enforced.

@thegentlemancaller

Changing Lore is last thing which we want here.

@alysander

In the most primitive version it just could be cut on half geosphere transformed to shape of Balmora. Then we brake connection on edges and we have separate invisible triangles with the same pivot , so then is it easy to match. Disadvantages of this solution is that we have enormous additional door ID's  and every piece has own marker to put. Maybe I can imagine doing that for Balmora but for Vivec it would be pain in the ass to implement that. I hope our programmers can advise sth in this matter. Of course even in closed area we have to recreate nearest surrounding.

Levitation is not the only problem, we have our beloved cliffracers too.

Changing Lore is last thing which we want here.

I think everyone is in agreement here. But if levitation is outright deactivated in a closed world-space cityscape (as has been discussed), there will have to be some sort of explanation for it. Otherwise it will just come off as immersion-breaking and lazy.

There's no easy solution. I've been active on these forums for almost a year and in that time everyone has chased their tails with no clear solution. :/ Time is ticking and we're at that point when the devs have to make a firm decision and go with it.

There are only three solutions, really:

1.) Open cities that take place in the same worldspace (a la vanilla Morrowind). This most limits the city and design elements due to engine capabilities.
2.) Closed cities where levitation and teleportation spells are permitted, with a dome-like lattice, each panel acting as a door marker. Even with this option, the surrounding countryside would still have to be created, and thus seems like it would still be a drain on engine performance, just to a less extant than the first option.
3.) Closed cities where levitation and teleportation spells are deactivated. This is immersion-breaking, not to mention potentially lore-breaking, and would require an in-game explanation to save face and not appear sloppy and lazy. However, this would allow for the greatest city capabilities due to the fact that surrounding countryside doesn't have to be created.

If there are additional options, I don't think they've been presented.

We sure can make facete array of "automatic doors" but this is kind of dumb.
---
My question is can we make trigger of distance (when D>CRIT, or D<CRIT), get player/cliffracer coords and translate it to specific point in other world (formulas pretty simple even with change size of spheres/worldplaces).
---
But i am hope that cities just can be made more wide and less dense. At least Balmora, but Vivec can be great too if team will scatter it's cantons to big territory of Ascadian bay, and link it with long bridges and aqueducts.

 

Alysander, you don't seem to realize that the world is quite tiny. There is no 'big territory' of Ascadian Bay - the whole map is small.  We can utilize Tardis effect to ameliorate the situation, but we will still be making the cities pretty dense.  We definitely don't want cities less dense than they were in Morrowind.

On the other hand city/agglomeration territory can be more interesting than empty sea/land;
It wuld be nice if most of ascadian islands territory were filled with city, farms and fields.

First post here, long time lurker. I believe that making the cities denser allows for a greater perception of urbanization--especially within House Hlaalu's city of Balmora who are the mercantilist house. Larger the city, the bigger the island of Vvardenfell feels in its own world space. Since the island isn't huge (in terms of player world space), large urban sprawl within an open-city setting wouldn't be proportionate to the environmental space. Also considering that the Island hasn't been marked for settlement for too long, it's hard to believe that such a mass colonoization would be seen.

In relations of Vivec, as it was already pointed out, the Ascadian Isles are an archipelago of small islands. Sprawl of the city would again like Balmora, would feel disproportionate. Vvardenfell is a mostly rural setting; an unforgiving region with its relatively desolate landscape being most of its charm. However, I'm not exactly sure on the relative size of Skywind's Vvardenfell, but large urban sprawl would only be appropriate if the landscape allows it--or all cities become their own world space, albeit if this is the option, 1:1 scale from the outside to inside spaces would only work if the landscape itself is increased from the 24 km2 of the original game to compensate. 

Are the major cities on hold until a decision is made?