Materials and their GAMEPLAY effects.

Bone mould was said to be as strong as steel

I agree with pretty much all these, but lets see what drago thinks, and it depends on what we can achieve in scripts (with the damage/repair)

Heh, he actually consulted be before writing that out, so it's all fine by me.

Dwemer: very sturdy but takes a of a lot of dwarven scrap items to repair it. Or perhaps only very particular ones which will increase difficulty of repairing based on rarity but would last awhile once you scavenged a dwemer ruin.

I would say for dwemer: some of the toughest armour u can find, lasts the longest of all armours, but very heavy and cannot be repaired (without master perk)
You think you know the secrets of dwemer forging!? the audacity!

Just look at how long Dwarven armor and weaponry have lasted. It's supposed to be extremely durable, able to keep its edge, but very, very heavy.

This isn't really the topic for it, but the sale and trade of Dwemer artifacts is supposed to be illegal in Morrowind. Is Skywind going to ignore that fact since Bethesda pretty much did the same, or will you include limitations in some way? Would be a fair bit more difficult to repair Dwemer armor if being seen melting down Dwemer artifiacts (in certain places) meant you took on a bounty.

METALS: (Iron, "Steel", Dwemer, Silver) dont need additional material to fix it, maybe only fuel for furnace.
STONES: (Glass, Ebony, Orichalcum?, Daedric?) need additional material, use it at manner of fallout series.
ORGANICS (Chitine, Bone, Bonemold, Dreugh, Dragonscale, Leather): need glue and suture to repair.

Metals need to be sharpen with grindstone that gives temp bonus, non-metals - have some middle-sharp everytime.

Would be nice to have some magicka resonance effect for different materials - for example Iron and Steel must be resistant to enchantment (~50% penalty) dwemer and some shitty Bone, Chitine have boost for it.

Dwemer: a lot stronger then steel, a little weaker then ebony, heavier then steel, lighter then ebony. This material is the one that last longer, but can't be repaired without master perk and requires a lot of dwemer ingots to repair (each weapon requires 2/3 ingots to repair, each piece of armor 3/4 or 5 ingots).

No ingots to repair. This is difference of metals - they arent breaking, but just deforming.
That's why we even advanced to bronze age.

alysander

No ingots to repair. This is difference of metals - they arent breaking, but just deforming.

Ok, no ingots. But dwemer should still be a bit of tedious to manage, in order to compensate for their very long durability, high damage (more near to ebony then steel) and medium weight (between steel and ebony). I didn't play Morrowind, but in Oblivion and Skyrim dwemer weapons and armors are easy to find, so I suppose maybe they will not be that commom, but you can still collect some copies of every pieces if you explore a lot of dwemer ruins, right?

I have an idea about repair dwemer stuff: in Morrowind you meet the last of the dwemer right? I don't know his story, but maybe you could add a book on him about dwemer crafting, and that book will give you the ability to repair dwemer stuff when you have the master perk. If you don't read the book, you will not be able to repair the dwemer weapons and armors even with the master perk. Maybe I'm bit out of topic, I'm sorry.
 

mb this should look like this if ppl would forgive me ciphers::

Wouldn't glass be more durable then 0.4? It's volcanic glass so it would at least be more stable then silver, I would think.

this is only init proposal. to any progress need start of actual coding this.
but i think that we maybe need different values for weapon and armor durability.
glass is breaking, while metals just got deformed
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for example make sharpiness system for some metal weapons.

You guys are being awfully literal about theses materials. "This is called glass, so it's gotta shatter like a bottle." Soft materials can be amazingly durable if properly prepared. There are iron alloys that outrank titanium for tensile strength. Or go look up Grapheen. It's harder than a diamond and made from graphite, the soft writey black stuff in your pencil.

Amorph material will be shatter if it isnt goo or metal. Glass-like materials can be really durable only as fibers.
I dont see big error in treating this materials as some sort of magic volcanic glass and magic obsidian.
They are someway better, but not out of their big categories.

I think Glass is more like glass-ceramic alloy than regular volcanic glass. That would explain its durability.

Or it could be layered with resin. That's how they make bullet proof glass.

Yep. Glue/resin is more plausible way. Actually that s able to make armor from simple cloth if you have good resin.

I really like enchantment penalty. But items should have some information about that. Workbench, tailortable make more sense but it needs:

-Additional animations

-Additional assets

and:

-It complicates game, if you have it as separate things. For example you have glass helmet, silver sword, leather boots. It is annoying to running from one place to another to fix it it's better to do it in one place.

-If you want to fix armor in one case you go to tailor in other case to smith?

For me it has sense only when it will be "somehow" one asset or all assets in one place with just different animations.

Actually, different materials would respond differently to enchants. Stuff made of something that once lived is much more enchantable. Leather more than iron, chitin quite a bit, Bonemold would be VERY enchantable, since it's made of bones of either animals (enchantability comparable to chitin), enemies (bonus to aggressive enchants?), or ancestors (bonus to protective enchants?). Indoril is gilded chitin, but it's already enchanted quite a bit to make it tougher. Glass, not that much enchantability. Ebony? That one can take an enchant, it's a stilled blood of a god. Daedric is a blood of a god mixed with a soul of a demon, so I guess that one can take even more enchanting.

yep. With metals and specially steel and silver are minimal enchantable.

Yep, it's logical. Something that once had a soul, has more capacity to take one for enchants. Iron, steel, or red hair don't apply.

As logic this is nonsense, but this is
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MYTHOLOGICAL!
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Steel and silver are good treating to some beings of abormination kind like elves and vampires.

Doesn't that conflict with the point of making materials distinct? Using your system, we'll still have it where Ebony and Daedric are the only two worth using. You could just enchant the penalties on them away given their insane enchantment capacity.

penalty: cost.
maybe i must made more abstract table

I like the idea of not being able to craft dwemer and daedric. An unique set of daedric weapons and armors in the whole game, dwemer weapons and armos maybe 3 or 4 copies of each piece in the whole game? It would be cool. Finally you could be happy about finding a piece of dwemer in a dungeon and the happiest when finding a daedric one.

Super rare isnt a thing. Player need only one set.
Would be nice to have quality bonuses for each material, for examly (some are jokes)

I wonder if that would be real to make game to know WHAT_MATERIAL_OF_WEAPON touch with WHAT_MATERIAL_OF_ARMOR and respondingly breaks/break.

Iron does more dmg to elves? doesnt this only apply to fairytale-elves? 

I think if ever done, it would only apply to Norse weapons.

@Thermocrius, Ebony and Daedric will be heavier, but with a higher enchantment capacity, carry weight can be added to make weight a non-issue. It's also not as though weight matters much to begin with. And as for rarity, Ebony is mined in Morrowind - it's the biggest supplier in all of Tamriel.

Great ideas alysander

iron more damage to elves---> Why?, maybe no perks

glass protect from elements ---> it doesn't deteriorate after treating element and absorbs damage a bit.

orcs respect---> this one will be cool :D

you feel tank---> I remember mod where you get speed/movement penalty/slower attack. Maybe that you can't swim or it is very hard too.

super sexy for insects--> they don't attack you when you wear it

bonus in water---> this idea is cool to adding some armor rating

super-sexy---> Crassius Curio will love that or 10+ to opposite sex.

dragonscales--> maybe armor without movements penalty and os on.

Everything without mentioned ingame. those would be great small feature.

Btw. I remember that you could fix weapon/armor without smith in MW, just by hammer. My fault :/ I think the best option is when your armor or weapon is very deteriorated then you have to do it in forge with additional things (it should be sth else than wood and coal in metal, maybe muck)

What about speed? Daedric is the strongest weapon, it's also the slowest? Ebony is the second strongest weapon, it's also the second slowest?

yeap I'm in

Can we actually put weapon and armor deterioration in in a non-resource hogging way? Perhaps by going in reverse of the 'weapon upgrade' of smithing?

I had originally thought that each critical hit dealt (for weapons) or received (for armor) would give a chance at knocking down the quality by a chance, with more durable weapons and armor having a lesser chance of 'degradation' and more brittle weapons and armor (like glass or chitin) more likely to degrade. I was told that something like this would be very resource intensive as there would be scripts checking for critical hits all the time. Does Thermocrius or someone have any ideas on how something like this could be feasibly implemented? If so, be sure to work with Snakey.

If we do get a repair system into place, this would be a great way to made all armors valid to wear, with their own  benefits and drawbacks.

While glass armor would quickly wear down, it would be very protective and light. It would just require that repairs are made a lot of the time. Training in how to 'dodge' attacks outright would make sure glass armor is still quite valuable to have.

Of the steels, Orcish should be the best - lightest weight of steel, most durable and damaging. It would just require more skill than iron, steel, or imperial steel to repair.

I like the idea of common 'Dwemer armor' starting out with very high durability and not being 'repairable' without scrap metal. For the repurposed-animunculi armor, this would represent replacing a damaged piece from one animunculi with a similar piece from another animunculi. The repair itself could be very readily done as it's just a matter of replacing a damaged piece, but the metal itself would be required - and it's heavy and not too easily attained.

Dwemer noble armor (which would indeed be very rare) and Dwemer weapons would be so durable as not to degrade very readily at all, but be nearly impossible to repair. Sort of like Lincoln's Henry Rifle from Fallout 3. Perhaps repairing it would require you bring it to Yagrum himself, and take a fairly long in-game time to repair based on the damage recieved. Maybe he only takes one item to repair at a time, at his own leisure.

For daedric, I like the idea of it repairing itself better than just it being indestructible. Representing the daedra soul trapped within 'healing' the weapon or armor. The material is now 'living'.

The idea of organic being more readily enchanted is a great idea, too. The reasoning is solid, and Morrowind reflected this with the cephalopod helm having a ridiculously high capacity for enchantment for its weight and glass's enchantment capacity being being pretty low. But again, is there a way to handle enchantments in a fashion similar to Morrowind, where we can even introduce discrepancies in enchantment quality allowed on a given item? If so, we need to figure this out, and get Snakey on board for this, too.

 

Well, realistically, you can't really fix armour nor weapons with raw materials. That is at least true for weapons and plate armour. You can sharpen a blunt sword, hammer the chips a bit, but you can't weld iron into it - that would destroy it. Basically you would have to dismount the whole thing, heat it up, work with the hammer until it's soft again by breaking the shape, weld in a piece of metal, then forge to the previous shape and quench. For plate armour to add anything to it you would have to do the same. Only things I'd see viable for fixing with raw materials is things like chainmail and lamellar or scale armours. These were designed for ability to easily fill in missing links or scales.

Aren't you guys getting a bit too caught up in realism? I mean, why stop at just repairing armor and weapons? Why not come up with realistic "recipes" for forging them as well? You can't forge an armor piece with just two leather straps and an ingot..

I think giving each material a unique feel through advantages/disadvantages is nice, but that's about it. Going into incredibly realistic detail with the repair system sounds like a bit much.

I can't exactly remember where I read about it, but there was an idea floating around here once that focused on the influence of ash weather affecting separate armors differently. Native dunmer armors for example had maybe a lower overall armor rating than their western counterparts but proved vastly more effective in ash protection, an environmental factor which would act as a de-buff such as restricting sight, sapping stamina, or movement speed and such. Everybody is debating the small pedantries of armor when I feel that we SHOULD be fleshing out thematic elements more relevant to the existing game.

I see little misunderstanding of my ideas



Sys:
METALS require FUEL to repair (wood or charcoal), with exception of dwemer metal that can be repaired cold.
STONES require additional RAW_MATERIAL to replace broken parts and GLUE.
SOLID_ORGANIC materials need also RAW_MATERIAL and GLUE
FLEXIBLE_ORGANIC (and cloth) materials need SEWING.

I am not sure that fix your leather or glass armor with hammer will be good idea. I dont like idea to fix items in ashlands.
Yes. Chitin and Netch armors must give significant ash protection.
No, I dont think that armor should make you slow. You must be going slower (use more and more stamina to move) just bcoz of over-all weight of inventory.

From gameplay side of view I think it's better to keep for player as simple as it is possible and not complicate more than is needed. So it would cool feature with additional fixing things on the beginning but later it could be annoying. I think better option is that you need materials when weapon or armor is totally broken. It brings some diversity to game but not complicate too much.

METALS require FUEL to repair (wood or charcoal), with exception of dwemer metal that can be repaired cold.

we don't have too much wood on island (how u will collect this wood, where do you buy it?) and we don't have any coalmine in the island.

I think muck is better because it is much more accessible and you can buy it in many places.

STONES require additional RAW_MATERIAL to replace broken parts and GLUE.

instead glue maybe just resin as glue

I am not sure that fix your leather or glass armor with hammer will be good idea. I dont like idea to fix items in ashlands.

I think almost all armors should have option of repair (maybe with exception with some unique armors like superdwemer). Second thing is that it should be one thing for repairing all types of armors. I'm not familiar with that but maybe instead of just hammer some set of repairing tools. Third is that we have some important things to wear during quests. Remember keep as simple possible for the player.

Yes. Chitin and Netch armors must give significant ash protection.

Maybe just when is ashstorm your stamina is much faster going down, you have worse vision but with Chitin and Netch armors you don't have any of these penalties

No, I dont think that armor should make you slow. You must be going slower (use more and more stamina to move) just bcoz of over-all weight of inventory.

When you have heavy armor you move different than for example in leather armor. When you have some penalties in movement but greater armor and when you have some penalties in armor but better movement, then all armors are more useful and there is not sth like best armor in game because it depends on your gameplay.

 

 

1. is Muck some sort of oil? Still think some rare wood (chopped from air or collected from some new deposites) would be better.
2. Resin can be glue. Anyway it was used in bonemold armor recipes?
3. Several crafting stations must be better. I still hope that we will have potter wheel.

4. Would be nice to have system of faster stamina use for movement with any weight on player - when player wear armor weight balanced better, than when it concentrated in a pack. Additional minus to stamina regeneration in ash storm would be nice.


 

1. It is just highly energetic shit. Good for fuel. But when I remember that logs where almost everywhere near forge,  I don't if we need it as additional thing. Keep it simple.

3. For me only to create or repair destroyed armor, weapon. In other way it is too complicated.

You are talking about "too complicated for player" if there would be some teenager amoebas.

Not in meaning that you are too retarded to understand but in meaning that you have to do it all and all over again running millions times to the same place. And it was only about repairing things. For me crafting stations can be in any quantity.

I dont think daadric should be indestructible, the the hardest, yes. Dragon Bones should be extremely rare and rival outweigh even deadric in terms of base damage, but fall short in terms of armour-penetration. Also should be impossible to repair (maybe enchanting could repair them?). Materials should have enchanting scaling depending on how easily magic flows through it. So the best weapon for one type of character may not be the smae for someone who uses enchanting. Dwemer should be able to be increased the most when you have the "ancient knowledge" perk, attained through a quest, making it viable late game and explaining in terms of law why these highly advanced people used weapons which are average in comparison to ebony and daedric.

Since I saw it mentioned:

- Snakey does not know whether there is a reliable way to check for critical hits. There definitely is no direct way to do this that I know of.

- Giving durability penalties on weapons when dealing critical hits will make people avoid anything that boosts critical hits.

It doesn't necessarily have to be on 'critical hit', could be on a timer of so many hits, etc. Point is, before we have a conversation on how to handle the different materials we need to have a way to have meaningful degredation and repair in the first place. The repair should be easy enough, but the degradation doesn't seem to exist yet. We need to brainstorm on ways to handle it, and determine which is viable.

Now that I think of it, once we have a system for it, spells like 'disintegrate weapon' and 'disintegrate armor' becomes viable as well. Not sure if we'll have a '0' though, or just a lowest quality of a given material.

We can abuse tempering health + SKSE. Here's a quick draft of how the system would work:

- Tempering == repairing

- Perfectly fine weapons are "fully tempered", whatever that means

- Whenever a weapon hits, we use SKSE functions to slightly decrease the weapon's tempering health

 

That assumes, of course, that we don't use the "real" tempering. For me that'd be fine, since it's player-only per default, and therefore sucks a bit.

I've done a spell in PerMa that sharpens (tempers) the user's equipped weapon, so I guess the other direction will work as well.

Repairing >> Tempering
It have bigger priority, and anyway tempering any material is inherently dumb idea (as ingots of everything).
That would be nice if Skywind got SKSE.

I think you should be able to deconstruct metal, organic and stone armors as well as craft them. Perhaps you are in need of a weapon and have an extra set of iron boots, so you could melt them down, harvest the leather and iron ingots to make a blade. As it was said before, metals are worked at anvils and stone and organic are worked at work benches. So just add a deconstruct addition to these. Similar to the disenchant. But what if the armor or weapon is damaged? Then if you were to deconstruct it, you would only get a partial amount of your materials back. It's just that you seem to be making this so realistic. so you might as well take this into accounnt.

Could it be possible to make spell armor protect against armor and maybe even weapon degradation as well as providing defense? It would give a good reason to use defensive spells even at max armor rating.