Thieves Guild / Fighters Guild Conflicts

In the original Morrowind, there was a large conflict between the Thieves Guild and the Fighters Guild (Which was, spoilers: controlled by the Camonna Tong). If you were a member of the fighter's guild up to a certain point, you could not join the Thieves Guild. If you were a member of the thieves guild, it made doing some quests within the Fighters guild very challenging.

There was not a very easy way to come to terms with this in a way that allowed you to take both sides. What was in place had you having to stop and go back and forth and completing certain quests in certain orders and so on.

As such, I put forward a suggestion or request that Skywind should take a look at this and try to find a way to resolve this in-game. Without, it feels as though a person could accidentally lock themselves out of an entire faction by progressing forward with another faction first. In the original game, it also feels like there is very little resolution to the loopholes that leave things lacking.

Anywho, just putting an idea out there for when we get to it. The nitty gritty of quests might still be a far way off at this point, but it's something to keep in mind once we get there [External image]

I actually like this sort of

I actually like this sort of thing. You saw it with Telvanni vs Mages' Guild, and Redoran vs Hlaalu vs Telvanni. This sort of faction exclusivity was also all over Fallout: New Vegas. You would forge an alliance with one group only to potentially piss off another group. It added a lot to the atmosphere, and really made the player get into the politics of the world. I wish Beth would have had 'choosing sides' in all of their games. Hopefully they'll get back to form in future games.

I'm going to have to agree

I'm going to have to agree with Smitehammer, character immersion has dipped in recent games in which factions like these are so completely separate from each other rather than at odds, or even as important, allied to each other. There were situations in Morrowind that I felt could have been slightly different, for example the Thieves Guild quest in Ald'Ruhn where you invaded the Mage's Guild... and then nothing? You didn't hear about their lost comrade whom you killed, they didn't mention the thousands of gold worth of coin and loot I took, nor the fact that they should have been up in arms against the Thieves Guild for it. Adding depth to the world by including these skirmishes between guilds and factions makes the game world that much more believable, and really sucks the player in.

Yep, would be nice to add

Yep, would be nice to add situations in which player must destroy alternative ways himself. As if he killing mage guild guardian, who could be supposed to start other Mage's guild quest. And player must will know about it, much later.

Uh... I hate to break it t

Uh... I hate to break it t you, but there already is a way to resolve this. In the original Morrowind, you can get a quest from the leader of the Fighters Guild in Aldruhn (Percius Mercius ) to kill Hard-heart who is working with the Commona Tong. You could o this quest along side the Theives Guild one and still become leader of both guilds.

You can find the quest here:

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Kill_Hard-Heart_(Fighters_Guild)

i mean there can be more

i mean there can be more examples of this competition. Who will be killed by outlander next?

DunmerRaiz wrote:

DunmerRaiz
Uh... I hate to break it t you, but there already is a way to resolve this. In the original Morrowind, you can get a quest from the leader of the Fighters Guild in Aldruhn (Percius Mercius ) to kill Hard-heart who is working with the Commona Tong. You could o this quest along side the Theives Guild one and still become leader of both guilds.

You can find the quest here:

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Kill_Hard-Heart_(Fighters_Guild)

As I mentioned several times, it can be done, however it isn't really something that you can do without making absolutely sure you do everything right. It is tricky to do, and when you do it doesn't feel like actually fixing the problem as more of just finding a loophole in the whole thing, circumventing friction that was meant to occur.

However, I understand as well what everyone means here. I get that it makes sense, Mage-Guild on Telvanni and the House-Conflicts, as well. Perhaps it would be good to do it this way.

In that case then, it should be made very clear that things can not work out. You have to choose. You give up one or the other, and whatever that implies. With House Conflicts, this was done already (Only being able to join one Great House), and I actually didn't even realize that there were conflicts between the Mages Guild and Telvanni (Though that really does make sense, thinking about it; I just never joined Telvanni myself). Going on this, there should be clear times where choices have to be made. Being confronted for your actions in one guild and being told "No, you have gone too far. Either you renounce them or you leave us," that sort of thing.

Deep down though, I would still like there to be a way to resolve things between them in a more canon, not so loophole manner. As mentioned, in-game you would stop your Fighter's guild quests until turning one of them far into the Thieves' guild quest and then having to go back and further progress in the fighter's guild and so on, without really mentioning the fact that you are just walking around an issue. Some sort of resolution other than "Doing this invalidates having done that."

If anything, I'd actually add

If anything, I'd actually add even more of such conflicts. It doesn't make sense that you can be a leader of both the Temple and the Imperial Cult, two opposing religions.
We could make it a bit more difficult to join Imperial factions if you side with the Dunmer native ones, and vice versa. In Morrowind it was only done through slight disposition bonuses or penalties, but they were too little to matter that much.

Only thing that didn't seem right in Morrowind to me about thieves guild vs. fighters guild, was that it wasn't hinted enough. You ended up pissing off Thieves Guild without even knowing about it, so it was less of a conscious decision (at least in the first playthrough), and more of an accident. In life such accidents are often more common than decisions between two alignments, but it plays better if the player is aware that if they do something, they burn bridges with someone else. On top of that, it wasn't even a part of the story, it was a purely mechanical conflict in the quest system, and in an updated game with fully voiced characters I don't think we can leave as much to the imagination, as Morrowind did.

Drago, can you do re-writes

Drago, can you do re-writes of these, or ping Justafan about the need for these to be updated. Otherwise they'll remain vanilla

Drago, also if you could add

Drago, also if you could add some diverse to some more boring quests it would be cool too ;)

I say leave it vanilla

I say leave it vanilla allowing people to make the choice to join all cults/guilds/etc despite lore for certain playthroughs, with the limitations being only the ones place in by vanilla, then spend time coding the new system to be used as an optional add-on/mod in the launcher. If it seems limiting like fast travel or map marker disabled make it an add on to appease the masses, limitations lead to riots in the comment section aka duplicate threads.

Dragomir wrote:

Dragomir
If anything, I'd actually add even more of such conflicts. It doesn't make sense that you can be a leader of both the Temple and the Imperial Cult, two opposing religions.
We could make it a bit more difficult to join Imperial factions if you side with the Dunmer native ones, and vice versa. In Morrowind it was only done through slight disposition bonuses or penalties, but they were too little to matter that much.

Only thing that didn't seem right in Morrowind to me about thieves guild vs. fighters guild, was that it wasn't hinted enough. You ended up pissing off Thieves Guild without even knowing about it, so it was less of a conscious decision (at least in the first playthrough), and more of an accident. In life such accidents are often more common than decisions between two alignments, but it plays better if the player is aware that if they do something, they burn bridges with someone else. On top of that, it wasn't even a part of the story, it was a purely mechanical conflict in the quest system, and in an updated game with fully voiced characters I don't think we can leave as much to the imagination, as Morrowind did.

Yes! I can very much agree with that. I was thinking the same thing, it seeming to be very odd that the Tribunal and Imperial Cult were not more at odds. In that same line, there should definitely be some more retribution from both if/when you take the mantle of the Nerevarine, since it is definitely heretical to the Tribunal and likely not supported by the Cult, though that's really just a random thought and not something that needs to be added unnecessarily.

As well that is a good point about it being a mechanical issue and not a story one. Like I said, something should be done to sort of iron that out.

I would also enjoy seeing more conflicts if they could be reasonably produced. I could very much so understand being members of the Imperial factions causing conflict with the native Vvardenfel factions. Admittedly, I can't really think of anything. But something that could separate them more, making there be more rifts between quite obvious enemies.

We were talking about having

We were talking about having it so you can only join one at a time, but can ask to be excommunicated. The cult lets you go and you get a -1 towards their faction for future interactions, while the tribunal will let you go but will send ordinators after you (plus kill you on sight) unless you decide to join the safety of the imperial cult, as you won't be a "heretic" anymore as they are protected by law. Thoughts?

For other factions where the

For other factions where the conflicts aren't so obvious I think it would only come into play when you're higher in rank. Want to get promoted further in the Telvanni? Part ways with the Mages Guild - they openly interfere with our buisness. Of course, that could be only one or two councilors (probably only the ones pissed off the most by mages guild)... And you can always just kill them if you can't convince them. Some other Telvanni would definetly also not like you joining the Imperial Legion, Imperial Cult, or Almsivi Temple. They seem opposed to all of these factions.

Redoran would probably tolerate us also serving the Imperial Legion or Fighters Guild, maybe except for a few members. Hlaalu wouldn't have problems with anything, probably. Not sure how would the Temple look at being in the Imperial Legion, maybe they'd ask you to leave it when you want to rank up above something.

Another thing I can think about is that our becoming Nerevarine could have such repercussions. We should at least get expelled from the Temple if we proclaim ourselves the Nerevarine, and maybe have that part of the Main Quest be shorter and simpler if we're already the archcannon. It was a bit stupid that we had to ask Tholer Saryoni - our predecessor for blessing after we made him retire and took his place.

Thank you Dragomir, if

Thank you Dragomir, if anything this is the idea I had, however I feel if you joined the Telvanni and became the second or third rank and decided to join the mages guild right away it might not be an issue because you are sort of a nobody to each faction and it would be overlooked like a job interview, however gaining enough rank in either guild, say rank 5-7 or above then you could be approached by a courier of said faction (or both) claiming you must decide which group to stay with now that you are well known in both communities. The way I describe it allows players to experience both sides of conflicting groups (like a trial) then when high enough rank are noticed and given the option to join one group and be expelled from the other. I do agree killing certain speakers of said groups could sway said guild, house or group to allowing you to take part in the other conflicting groups.

Finally I also would like to "vote" that the base Skywind game stay as close to the original allowing players to join the mages guild, Fighters and Thieves guild with the exception of allowing much less complications to appease the new players. However in the installer allow the option to add the plugin which restricts joining all guilds. P.S I believe the base game should always restrict choosing only one House.
-Sorry for the long post, I will clarify my explanations if needed.

Just read the bit about the

Just read the bit about the Nerevarine, like the idea, and may I suggest for base Skywind disabling the option to join the temple till after the main story line to make it as easy as possible to avoid threads claiming the temple just kicked them for no reason, as example: Due to Dagoth Ur's lingering threat the Temple has decided to deny admission to join their faction out of fear Dagoth could send spies to infiltrate their organization posing as recruits, as seen in the game some members of house Dagoth's cult are deeply hidden and rooted in other towns, groups, and guilds. Now however upon completing the main quest you are given the option to join them (but due to certain codes and guidelines) even being the Nerevarine you must start fresh and work up the ladder.

On the mention of Hlaalu--I

On the mention of Hlaalu--I think you are somewhat correct in thinking they wouldn't really be opposed to anything, but I think that they would be somewhat disappointed by joining the Tribunal, since Hlaalu is a primarily Imperial Great House, but nothing along the lines of making them choose. You are pretty well correct, I think Hlaalu wouldn't really care for much other than the other Great Houses.

Still, all of these are epic ideas. It'd be great to get some of these in there, really helping smooth out and expand on the inter-faction conflicts.

This would all make for a

This would all make for a great add-on mod. However, one big challenge would be if you can't get the voice actors to help on this. I guess if you kept the dialogs with the standard actors to a minimum and added new actors for these dialogs, that would be a safe option.

If you guys want this to

If you guys want this to happen, contact Smitehammer and Justafan about writing up some lines. What we would do is isolate them to particular NPCs so I can include the lines for the right voice actors without throwing everything into chaos as per SBB64s point. Otherwise none of this is making it in.