[COMPLETED - WEAPON CONCEPT] Cleaver of St. Felms

Well, this other discussion about other asset but I think all "saint" relics should have the same direction like Nexos mentioned in this post. So all saint weapons/cloths needs some style (maybe notes it's better word) supervisor. IMHO for me 10th is best because it follows simplicity and it has cool shape. 11th is cool too but I'm not sure if it is convenient to use with handle like this right now. And yeah 3th suites me most, form original ones (MW's style) from which I could choose. Why third one? It looks most primitive. Remember that most saints were poor zealots.

Lives of the SaintsIf you would learn fierce justice, follow Saint Felms the Bold, Patron of Butchers and Fishmongers. This brave warlord slew the Nord invaders and drove them from our lands. He could neither read nor write, receiving inspiration directly from the lips of Almsivi.

Personally, I really like your meat cleaver ones - 6, 7, 11 and 12 in particular. The original design reminds me of DND-style enormous overly-detailed ornate axes rather than real weapons:

[External image]

(Lurker here, don't put too much weight in my opinion).

 

I like 4, but I'd make the axe head still a bit smaller. The less ridiculous fantasy tropes, the more happy I am :P

I like 5, 6 and 7 best.

7+11+12 looks practical.

I actually really like the way you explored the idea of a cleaver. My favorite is 8. I really like the handle and the shape of the head on 8, but the head could be moved to a better angle for chopping. Looking into the lore of who Felms was, http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Felms, I don't think he would have any real fancy looking stuff like the original model, and it sounds like the guy just picked up the biggest knife he had and ran out the door to fight Nords. I would keep going on the idea mixing a combat ready axe with butcher tools.

Wow, great! Your materials look really realistic, outstanding! The damascus steel looks awesome, but it´s perhaps a bit too luxurious for an "ordinary" cleaver, you can weaken it by adding some rust or oxidation... And I would increase the cutting edge a bit, so it looks sharper. Overall great, keep it up ;)

I'd be down for a butcher's cleaver. Found these pictures of some 'antique' meat cleavers with interesting shapes. [External image]

[External image]

[External image]

Love the top photo, looks really elegant

St. Felms was a simple but fierce warrior. So practical and lethal designs are the best. 8, 9, 10 and 11 are still axes, but simpler than the one in Morrowind. My favourite is 11 because it looks like a nice combination of a butcher's cleaver and an axe.

Hard to choose, they all look really good!

Since Saint Felms was a butcher, I would go for n°1 (it looks more like a butcher's cleaver than the other two). On the other hand, I love n°3.

I guess I'm not being very helpful, but at least I'm not suggesting any changes :D

I like number 1, though I would go with something approximating the 'Dunmer steel' seen in other concepts and models rather than Damascus steel for the sake of consistency. Blackened steel with an edge worn shiny from use.

Damascus steel might better fit Redguards?

Wow, much hard work put in that! All three are great, I vote for 3. It looks most unique and nevertheless like a butchers tool. You did it!

Number 1, in my opinion we should keep the metal the way it is, looks really interesting and unique.

 

Oh and I found a picture of saint felms too: 

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/File:Shrine_of_St._Felms.jpg

Number 3. Nr. 1 looks like something that'd only be useful for cutting herbs. Too short for its mass, and the center of balance too far down. Cleaver is not necessary something used by butchers, there are plenty of examples of military cleavers - in English and French more often called falchions.
[External image]


As for the pattern - I really like it. However, contrary to what Smite is pointing out, it does not at all look like damascus steel. Damascus/wootz/cruicible steel has a very different pattern and technological process - molten to a liquid in a sealed environment forming tiny dendrite crystals naturally in the process of quenching. Pattern welding on the other hand is forge-welding layers of high and low carbon steel, folding them over and twisting them, and then forging out into something with a pattern like that. Culturally wootz steel is an Indian thing (Khajiit?), Bulat/Damascus steel is Persian (Redguards? Pretty much same thing as Wootz, they most likely posessed the secret of producing it from Hindu), and pattern welding, though present in all of Europe from around 600 to 1200 AD, the masters of it were Anglo-Saxons (Bretons?) and Scandinavians (Nords?). Oh, there are also 9th - 11th Century +Ulfberh+t swords found all across Europe - though most often in Scandinavia. They were produced most likely somewhere between today's Germany and France and they were the actual damascus steel brought to Europe by viking and varangian merchants via the Volga traderoute.

Wootz/Damascus steel:
[External image]

Pattern welded steel:
[External image]

Just putting it here for the sake of education and why "patterns on a blade = Redguards" is a HUGE oversimplification when comparing TES cultures to real world.

Cleaver is not necessary something used by butchers

If you would learn fierce justice, follow Saint Felms the Bold, Patron of Butchers

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Lives_of_the_Saints

It's meant to be what it is. 

I love the look of 3. Amazing.

Buddy this is sweeeeeet!1oneone

I like most first one. Good thing for cooking. (very ordinary)

Also second one is also very useful as machete for poor monk.

While it's pretty funny to interpret Felms as a literal butcher, the manner of being deemed a patron saint of certain occupations is a bit more nuanced than that.

If you read Lives of the Saints, you'll notice that not all of the saints' tales pertain to their matched occupations:

Saint Aralor: If you would learn self-respect and respect for others, follow Saint Aralor the Penitent, Patron of Tanners and Miners. This foul criminal repented his sins and traveled a circuit of the great pilgrimages on his knees.

Saint Seryn: If you would learn mercy and its fruits, follow Saint Seryn the Merciful, Patron of Brewers, Bakers, Distillers. This pure virgin of modest aspect could heal all diseases at the price of taking the disease upon herself. Tough-minded and fearless, she took on the burdens of others, and bore those burdens to an honored old age.

Saint Roris: If you would learn pride of race and tribe, follow Saint Roris the Martyr, Patron of Furnishers and Caravaners. Captured by Argonians just before the Arnesian War, Roris proudly refused to renounce the Tribunal faith, and withstood the cruel tortures of Argonian sorcerers. Vengeance and justice for the martyred Saint Roris was the rallying cry of the Arnesian War.

as a few examples.

Aralor wasn't a miner or a tanner. He was a condemned criminal who repented and became a pilgrim.

Seryn wasn't a cook. She was a gifted woman who had the ability to cleanse people's diseases by taking them upon herself.

Roris wasn't leading a caravan or providing furniture. He was a man who was tortured and martyred by the Argonian forces around the time of the Arnesian War.

Felms wasn't a meat vendor. He was a (probably Redoran?) "brave warlord" who drove Nord invaders out of Morrowind.

It's the general ideals expressed by the tales--the actions--of these spectacular individuals that are depicted as both inspirational and representative of occupations that the average Dunmer may undertake.

The developers of TES III: Morrowind were meticulous (and eccentric) enough to make the Hair Shirt of Aralor have a unique hair shirt model, and the Fork of Horripilation to have a literal fork model. If they wanted the Cleaver of St. Felm's to be a butcher's meat cleaver, I'm sure they would not have hesitated to do that instead of giving it a unique axe model.

But that's just my two cents. Skywind is looking awesome!

I like the idea of Felms being a literal butcher who decided to start taking his butchery skills to the battlefield.  Like Bill in Gangs of New York.

If they wanted the Cleaver of St. Felm's to be a butcher's meat cleaver, I'm sure they would not have hesitated to do that instead of giving it a unique axe model.

That probably explains why the bloodworm helm is a nordic troll skull, made by an altmer, or why the darts of judgement "very rare arrows made in my home province of Valenwood" [sic] are daedric darts.

I understand, Smitehammer. I respectfully disagree with the idea that Felms was a butcher, but I don't think Skywind's model for this axe should match the one from Morrowind either.

Resemblance to a cleaver is key, because that's what this weapon is called after all.

I think it's important to pay attention to the distinction between the represented occupations of Saint Nerevar and Saint Felms.

Nerevar is the "fighter" saint who's represents Dunmer warriors and statesmen. He's a notably distinguished and charismatic individual in Dunmer history--a very ideal warrior and leader.

Felms, on the other hand, isn't remotely as dignified as Nerevar. Felms must have been quite the grisly fighter, as he's remembered as an uneducated warlord and a patron saint of butchers and fishmongers--tradesmen who deal with raw meat. You get the idea that Felms was indeed a very bloody experience for the Nords (after all, he is described as having basically repelled them single-handedly).

I think Felms' weapon would be a cleaver-like axe.

Nexos

That probably explains why the bloodworm helm is a nordic troll skull, made by an altmer, or why the darts of judgement "very rare arrows made in my home province of Valenwood" [sic] are daedric darts.

I don't know what that Bloodworm Helm is supposed to be. I don't know if it's stated anywhere in any book or dialogue if it's supposed to be a troll skull helm or not. (I saw your new design for it in the other thread and definitely prefer it over the troll skull, which I have always thought was bland).

Heh, as for the darts, that must have been the result of some last minute change or something. If you look around in the CS, you'll actually find arrows that are also called Darts of Judgement. I guess some developer thought that daedric darts would be a cooler reward.

"Closest thing to the flesh of a Nord, is the flesh of a horse." St. Felms, probably.

http://youtu.be/eSIDdiJn284

Not sure if people are joking or just being childish in response to Keltur's points. He's just been quoting the game lore. If you don't like Morrowind lore, why are you here?

No one's joking about anyone.

We've all been doing research about this weapon and St Felms. Turns out it's pretty open to interpretation, and a thin 3 lines can be found about the guy.
What we all said was basically:
St Rilms was rich, and she had shoes. But everybody has shoes.
St Aralor was a criminal, and had a shirt. But everybody has shirts.
We don't know who St Felms was. We know he had a cleaver. And not everybody has cleavers.

So who has cleavers? Most likely butchers. 
The guy is the patron saint of butchers. 

Also, he couldn't read. Which is quite likely for someone of his trade, in that kind of universe (fantasy and stuff).

So some of us thought it'd be more relevant to think of Felms, patron of butchers, to have had a butcher's cleaver, rather than a falchion, or an actual weapon that could be referred to as a cleaver. 

Smitehammer's point about Gangs of New York just tries to show a character who is named "The Butcher" and that fights with a cleaver. You could easily imagine someone having that as maybe a sidearm. 

[External image]

You could easily refine that kind of shape and obtain the cleaver's original design. 

The point I made about lazy replacers is that you shouldn't always follow what the original game established. Most designs are great. Some are failures. Some are not even trying. We can offer ourselves the luxury of having no deadlines, of spending months on a weapon set. This is something no real studio can afford, and bad designs are still existent designs. 
They probably had planned to make Valenwood arrows. They couldn't. We'll try. 

We decided (us, 2d department) that the relics should look more ordinary, more crude, than they used to in Morrowind. The nails of the Holy Cross were just nails, 2000 years ago.
The original cleaver looks too different from what you could expect from a butcher's tool.

What we have here is simply two opinions. Some think we should stick with the original design. The problem I personally have with that is the fact that it's not really an axe, not really a cleaver, and that nothing links it to "Felms, patron of butchers". It could be the weapon of Roris the Martyr.

Making this weapon an actual cleaver links it automatically to the idea of "butcher". That's what's been decided. 

 

For clarification, my opinion was one of not basing the design of the axe on Felms' patron occupations (which would make as much sense as Meris having a pitchfork relic, or Aralor having a mining pick relic). I actually don't agree with the original design of the weapon either, because it doesn't bear enough resemblance to its namesake (as a cleaver), which I thought it could do while still being a war axe.

But the manner's been decided, so I respectfully won't contest anymore.

Baishare's art, by the way, is incredible. I am constantly floored by how good the concepts and in-game results end up being in this project!

Here's my two cents.

What I think the idea behind the cleaver was during its design was not to actually be a literal cleaver, just named after it. Its sounds somewhat vague but I've seen it in media else places, Something like a sword being named "Blood thorn" But not actually being made from thorns or blood. Idk I just think perhaps changing the design from an axe to a cleaver seems rather drastic and probably against the original creators intentions. They could have made a cleaver if they wanted to, but they didn't, so there was probably some thought behind its original design. 

I agree with darkslayer49 on this one. Also I'm going to use a real world example about patron saints. Saint Barbara is the patron saint of artillerymen and miners but she had nothing in common with artillerymen or miners she was just a young woman that was beheaded by her pagan father.So st. Felms could be a warrior so cruel that could be called a "Butcher".

Hey people,

although discussing lore is important when it comes to concept art, the time for discussing shapes and design directions is over when it comes to this item.

Baishare proposed three final designs, the choice has to be made within the three. She clearly stated that in her last comment. So please pick your favorite out of the three she made. I think most people will agree when I say they look very good and are sufficiently different to satisfy different views. ;)

I'm a fan of #2.

I'm going to have to go with #1.

2 then :)

1st is most practical.

1 for me!

I've tallied up the above votes and it was a dead tie up til the last several posts. 1 has the lead and should probably be declared the design decision. design of #3 is pretty sweet though, perhaps find another weapon that could be the spiritual successor of that design?

Number 3 doesn't feel quite so much like it deserves the name of 'cleaver' as has been discussed, but if it were revived in a different form, perhaps it could be re-imagined as a tribal Dunmeri weapon, a goblin weapon (if Tribunal assets are being recreated yet?) or something Daedric?