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Morrowind to Skyrim Action Plan?

Submitted by Mooncat on

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Want to contribute? Download the current master here and let us know what task you're working on!

 

Hi guys,

I'd like to preface this by saying I'm not trying to take charge or tell anyone what to do or anything like that.  I've just been thinking about what steps we need to take once we have the initial converted mod files, and posting it here helps me organize my thoughts.  These are really suggestions more than anything, and I'm sure those of you who have been through this before with Morroblivion will have a better idea of what works and what doesn't.

So, the Project Andoran guys have told us what their tool can and can’t convert.  We don’t have the converted master yet, but that doesn’t mean we can’t start working!  We can start making base objects, connect generic dialogue, and—because of the special way Skyrim handles quest references—we can even start putting quests together.

Here are my thoughts on how to best organize the project.  If anyone wants to take a task, call it, and the bigger tasks can be split up as needed.  I’ve split tasks up into “projects,” and put the tasks for each project in rough order.  Like I said, these are more guidelines than anything else.

 

Project 1: Basic Tasks

Create Base .esm and Assign .esm “Master”—We should probably work off of one .esm and have one person who gathers our progress as .esp files and merges them.

Form Naming Conventions--We'll want to decide on form naming conventions for new data types.  For starters, I suggest we begin all new Morroskyrim forms with the prefix "MW," as this prefix isn't used by any forms in vanilla Skyrim.  (So for voices, Male Dunmer voice could be "MWDunmerMaleVoice" or somesuch.) 

Global Variables—Any global variables we’ll need.  Off the top of my head, I can only think of “IsInMorrowindWorld.”

Convert Meshes, Textures—Meshes and textures should be optimized before being added to this project.  In the meantime, use vanilla meshes and textures as placeholders.

Start in Morrowind Mod (Requires Converter)—A separate plugin that makes you start in Morrowind. Not strictly necessary, but handy.

Best Practices Guide (Optional)—A best practices guide to help everyone stay on the same page.  I think this is particularly important since Skyrim does present many new systems, and misunderstanding some of these systems could have some pretty nasty side effects (I’ve already seen a few popular mods with conflict-prone script implementation).

Retextures (Low Priority)--This is probably more important for other people than it is for me. :P  Update textures to match Skyrim standard.  Perhaps all the retextures done for Morroblivion already surpass the standard? I don't know, I'm not a graphics guy.

 

 

Project 2: Magic

Create Base Morrowind Magic Effects—Create the spell effects from Morrowind that we’ve lost.  For more complicated spells, we should just create placeholders for now.  (A note on Skyrim spell effects: range and cast type are part of the effect.  If the same spell can be cast both on touch and on target in Morrowind, it requires a different spell effect for each version in Skyrim.)

Create Morrowind Spells—Recreate the abilities, spells, powers, and diseases of Morrowind.

Create Morrowind Scrolls—Recreate the scrolls of Morrowind.

Create Morrowind Potions—Recreate the potions, drinks, and alchemy ingredients of Morrowind. Need to see if final converter will handle these.

Balance Spells (Low Priority)—Balance spells according to Skyrim’s game systems.

Balance Scrolls (Low Priority)—Balance scrolls according to Skyrim’s game systems.

Balance Potions (Low Priority)—Balance potions according to Skyrim’s game systems.

Morrowind Vampirism (Low Priority)—Recreate the 3 forms of Morrowind vampirism.

Bloodmoon Lycanthropy (Low Priority)—Recreate Bloodmoon lycanthropy.

Magic Keyword Check (Low Priority)—Make sure magic has proper keywords so they get perk bonuses and whatnot.

Blight Diseases--With Skyrim's keyword system, we can probably implement blight diseases as a separate thing that requires a different potion/spell to cure again.

 

 

 

Project 3: Items

Create Base Weapons—Create Morrowind weapons. For items we don’t have models of, use vanilla Skyrim models for now.  Classify crossbows and thrown weapons as normal bows for now (pending addition of crossbows in future patch and integration of throwing weapons mod into this project).  Need to see if final converter will handle these. In which case, this task is actually just creating base objects for crossbows and thrown weapons.

Create Base Armor—Create Morrowind armor and clothes.  For items we don’t have models of, use vanilla Skyrim models for now.  We have to make a decision here: implement lost armor types (pauldrons, separate gauntlets, greaves) as invisible gear until we have models for them, or stick to Skyrim’s combined body armor for now.  Need to see if final converter will handle these. In which case, this task is actually just creating base objects for pauldrons, gauntlets, belts, and maybe greaves.

Implement Misc Objects—Create all other Morrowind objects.  Determine what pre-existing Skyrim objects can be used instead (like soul gems, for instance) and document these.

Item Level Lists—Create Morrowind item level lists.

Enchant Weapons—Add enchantments to weapons, depending on the progress of Project 2.

Enchant Armor—Add enchantments to armor and clothes, depending on the progress of Project 2.

Balance Gear (Low Priority)—Balance weapons, armor, and level lists to Skyrim standards.

Models for Morrowind Weapons (Low Priority)—Implement models for Morrowind weapons.

Models for Morrowind Armor (Low Priority)—Implement models for Morrowind armor and clothing.  For now, this should include separated greaves/cuirass, but since we probably don’t have pauldron or gauntlet meshes handy, let’s save that for later.

Models for Pauldrons/Gauntlets (Low Priority)—Implement models for Morrowind pauldrons, gauntlets, and sleeveless armor.

Implement Throwing Weapons (Low Priority)—Implement code for throwing weapons.

Implement Crossbows (Low Priority)—Implement crossbows when patch comes out.

Crafting Recipes (Low Priority)—Create crafting recipes for Morrowind items.

Item Keyword Check (Low Priority)—Make sure items have proper keywords so they get perk bonuses and whatnot.

 

Project 4: Actors

Create Voice Types—Voice types are named "MWGenderRaceVoice."  For example, Dunmer males should use "MWMaleDunmerVoice."  Unique voice types have also been made for Vivec, Dagoth Ur, and Almalexia.

Create Factions—Recreate all of the factions that exist in Morrowind.  Set faction relations.

Create Creature Types—Create a stand-in race for every creature type that appears in Morrowind. For now, use vanilla Skyrim models and animations until we can get proper ones (unless they already exist).

Plan Actor Classes—Either create new classes exclusively for Morrowind NPCs, or create a table for what Skyrim classes match what Morrowind classes.  Do the same for combat AI.

Create Base NPCs—Create base NPC objects.  Pay attention to new Skyrim options like “Unique” (Very important! All unique/named NPCs should have this checked!) and “Voice Type.”  If they’re ready, try to populate the NPC’s faction list, inventory, and spell list, as well.

Create Base Creatures—Create base creature objects.

Populate Actor Inventories—Based on the progress of Project 3, populate actor inventories.

Populate Actor Spell Lists—Based on the progress of Project 2, populate actor spell lists.

Create Actor Level Lists—Create actor level lists that appear in Morrowind.  (Do any level lists appear in Morrowind?)

Place Actor References (Requires Converter)—Place actor references at appropriate locations in the world.

Set Up Services (Requires Converter)—Set up training, merchant, and fast travel services for all applicable NPCs.

Unique Creature Models and Animations—Add unique models and animations for Morrowind-specific creatures.

Balance Actor Power (Low Priority)—Balance actors/actor level lists according to Skyrim’s game systems.

NPC AI Packages (Low Priority)—Once we have Morroblivion converted to Skyrim, we can think about giving NPCs AI routines.

NPC Faces (Low Priority)—Give NPCs unique looks.

Actor Keyword Check (Low Priority)—Make sure actors have proper keywords so they are affected by correct spells.

NPC Relationships (Low Priority)--Group NPCs in relationships in the CK.  Probably won't be needed for what we're doing, but this level of thoroughness could open up possibilities for us in the future.

 

Project 5: Content

Base Locations—Create locations for all cities and dungeons, as well as a parent Vvardenfell location.  We don’t need to populate this with data yet; but having them early will let us implement quests before the worldspace is converted.

Dialogue Implementation--Add all non-quest dialogue to the game.  All generic dialogue should be kept in container quests so that things are nice and organized.  NOTE: Unlike in previous games, never check for character race when determining who can speak a line!  Instead, check for voice type—that way, only Morrowind characters will speak Morrowind dialogue.

Quest Implementation--Add the Morrowind quests to the game.  Using the Alias system, we can have these mostly implemented without having access to the worldspace.  Testing them to make sure they work, however, is another matter…

 

Connect Aliases to World (Requires Converter)—Any aliases that need to be connected to the world (x-markers, for instance) should be hooked up to their appropriate references.

Populate Locations (Requires Converter)—Populate locations with references, encounter zones, and cells.

Criminal System (Requires Converter)--Proper crime and punishment system will need to be implemented.  Might as well have the Imperials, Ordinators, and each House count as its own criminal faction while we're at it, eh?

Location Keyword Check (Low Priority)—Make sure locations have proper keywords.

Block SM Event Nodes (Low Priority)--Create blocks in the SM Event Nodes to prevent Skyrim events from occuring while in Morrowind.  I don't think we want dragons swooping down on 3rd era Balmora or Astrid sending assassins to kill you in her past.  We can key these blocks to trigger Morrowind-specific events, if we find a use for them.

 

Project 6: Environment (All require converter, of course)

NavMesh Generation--Generate a navigation mesh so NPCs can actually move around the world.

New Item Placement—Place the items that the converter couldn’t handle into the world.

Item Adjustment—Adjust the positioning of any items that couldn’t be replaced.

Land Textures—Set up appropriate land textures.

Working Doors—Make sure doors can open and close.

Working Furniture (Low Priority)—Get furniture working properly.

New Trees (Low Priority)—Place more Morrowind-esque trees in place of the stock Skyrim trees.

Crafting Workstations (Low Priority)--Placement of crafting workstations for all crafting skills in suitable places throughout the world.

Mining Locations (Low Priority)--Morrowind already has ebony and glass (malachite now, I guess) mines.  We might want to consider adding veins for all the other ores.

Weather & Climate (Low Priority)--Set up proper weather for the various regions.

Trapping Treasure Chests (Low Priority)--Add Skyrim-style traps to the treasure chests that were originally trapped in Morrowind.

Running Rivers (Low Priority)--Implement Skyrim-style running rivers.

Environment Population (Low Priority)--Populate the environments with critters and ambient sounds.

 

 

 

Project 7: Additional Features

Loading Screens--Port the loading screens from Morrowind and set them to load when the player is in the Morrowind world.  Note that this will require Morrowind-specific 3d models, as well.

Morrowind Birthsigns--If we get support for this, create birthsigns for Morrowind?  Up for discussion.  Should we: (A) allow the player to gain the power of a guardian stone as their birthsign; (B) recreate the Morrowind birthsigns as a separate bonus from the guardian stones, which might be OP if the player did Skyrim before Morrowind; or (C) remove the birthsign part of getting off the boat entirely?

Taking Over Houses--With Radiant Story, we may be able to have an NPC's home (or at least the bed and cell) change ownership to the player upon death, like in Morrowind. Is this something we want?

Marriage--Implement the marriage system.  (There's another way to get a place to live!)

Radiant Encounters--Implement Skyrim-style wilderness encounters.

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Last edited by grumpycat on 14 Mar 2014 - 21:15.

That's freaking incredible unkownone! Great work!

So, when I open the converted meshes, they're fully textured. I believe this is due to my nifskope texture path thing looking in the oblivion morro folder path. To get them in game, we need to copy our textures to the skyrim data folder too, right?

But dang man, that's a ton of meshes! Great work! 

I'm gonna load up the esp Robert made and test it out! :D

 

-----

Regarding the first post:

1) Man Mooncat, you did a really nice job with that first post. Top notch. Well organized with everything we need.

2) I'm creating a thread dedicated to discussion about "Create Base .esm and Assign .esm “Master” ". I feel like we need to start making threads for each of Mooncat's steps, (at least the ones that yeild substantial discussion) so that this thread doesn't get too cluttered up and remains free for overarching plans.

Actually, Mooncat, as threads are created that are deadicated to each of your steps,  could we link that step in your first post to its dedicated thread? (I can help with that if your up for it, but its totes your call). That would keep everything clean and organized. :D


In the meantime I'm making a travel to morrowind mod for Roberts esp so I can see what she looks like! :D 

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In Morroblivion quests had "fbmw" in front of their names. From what I can tell, everything else had "0" in front of its name. (Bloodmoon content had a BM after the 0, so it looked like "0BMSiceSmace". Spaces were created by using "S" or "U."


As I compared the esms in the Oblivion and Skyrim kits, I realized that the form ids, as well as the nif files will retain their origional names. So the only things we'll have to name are the esm itself, and new content we add such as scripts, audio, npcs, cells and quests.

the esm: I say we name it "Morrowind_sk". That's consistent with the oblivion esm name.

For quests, scripts, voices, actors, cells, etc. let's just go with Mooncat's "MW" prefix, followed by whatever the item was named in the origional esm. I think that should get the job done.

Anyone agree / disagree?

 

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Yes just copy the morroblivion textures to your Skyrim data folder and it should be working. Last night I went ahead and put some misc stuff in Skyim (ingredients) and they load fine :D However in Skyrim, the meshes have a '360' thing so you can rotate them all around, the morrowind meshes don't really have a bottom.

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Sweet! You've got me stoked!

Let's keep talking about mesh conversion here so that we can keep the threads organized:

http://morroblivion.com/forums/conversion-to-skyrim/general/2474
:D 

Regarding the bottomless misc items, Mooncat, can you make that an offical step? Someone is going to need to go in with blender/ 3dsmax and update all of those nifs!

 

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Ice

Actually, Mooncat, as threads are created that are deadicated to each of your steps,  could we link that step in your first post to its dedicated thread? (I can help with that if your up for it, but its totes your call). That would keep everything clean and organized. :D


In the meantime I'm making a travel to morrowind mod for Roberts esp so I can see what she looks like! :D 

Please, feel free.  This thread was just an attempt to get organized; I don't feel qualified, nor do I think I have the time to take more of a leadership role here. ^^;

I'll add the new task and create links.  Honestly, I'm not sure where we stand on what still needs to be done and what else needs to be added.  For instance, are we ready to start mocking up quests--or do we still need to implement NPCs first?

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Hey, does anyone know if a later version of the converter is going to convert properties of doors.  I've looked at several doors from Robert's .esp in the CK and found that they don't teleport to the cell they are supposed to (or any cell for that matter).  I've also tested this with many doors ingame, and they don't work either.  If it isn't going to be included in a later version of the converter than this task should be put in the action plan.  (If I have overestimated my not very good CK skills, and the doors do really work please disregard this part of the post, but please check first to make sure) :)

In regards to the question in Ice's earlier post, I completely agree with morrowind_sk.esm, as it shows continutity, and the prefix MW seems like a natural choice.

Also, Mooncat, I don't believe anyone has started on NPC conversion (I've seen a great deal of posts and I don't remember seeing anything about someone taking the job).  Though if I am wrong, once again just disregard this portion of the post.

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Shadow: Yeah, if you double click doors in the ck the teleport tab is blank, so right now they don't telly anywhere. I'd guess that that's tied with cell names being wrong. hopefully doors will come with properly named cells, but that's just my guess.

So Morrowind_sk is confirmed, as well as the MW prefix.

Once someone wants to start NPC conversion or start talking about it, please do make a new thread dedicated to it!

 

QUESTION:

Hey, origionally we had planned to do Morrowind, and then Oblivion. With how well we're anticipating the convert will work, I suddenly think it would be best if we converted Morrowind and Oblivion at the same time. What do you guys think? This would mean modders could have more choice to work on what they want, and I don't think they'red be any negative side effects to that choice. Especially when so much is being automated transfer. Unkownone could keep translated nifs if he wanted... everyone could just carry on with what they're already good at.

If people like this idea the next logical question is as follows: Do we make it one esm or two? Two would be my vote, so again people have choice. (Morrowind_sk and Oblivion_sk).

Thoughts? Arguments against?

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I would personally love both games to be converted over. And I'd vote for separate files as not everyone would want to play morrowind and oblivion in the new tech.
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Ice, I think we have a LOT on our plate with just converting Morrowind. There's some stuff Anruin has said that just won't simply convert, meaning we'll have to do it manually, NPC's, armor, quests, scripts, etc. Our team is already thin as it is, maybe even more so with some people wanting to stick to maintaining Morroblivion. I just don't want to see this die out like a lot of huge scale projects. So my two cents, I think we should focus on converting Morrowind first, since that's the main purpose of this site: Resurrecting Morrowind. If conversion goes well, and we get Morrowind for the most part converted, then Oblivion can follow, and we'll have that much more experience with converting, so Oblivion shouldn't take as long. That's my two cents anyway.
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And at this moment where have not actually started to convert to a working version of morroblivion. Where just testing out the current converter technics to see how we can advice Anruin in creating a better tool for future conversion of all the content. To much is missing at this moment we need to close the gaps first. best to start small.

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I think it would definitely be cool to port Oblivion over to, but agree with robert and SB, that we should focus on Morrowind currently. It's better to do them seperatly because with Morrowind we will get everything figured out, like how to convert everything and get it working. When we are done with Morrowind porting Oblivion should be much easier because we've already encountered most of the problems.

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Sounds fair enough. Robert, I think what you're saying is *sigh* probably wise. Just me getting over excited I guess. :D

So Morrowind first, then Oblivion. I can sit with that (for now). :D

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Post removed:
LOL, I went a bit to far off topic, thinking about TES - MMO conversion.
Best to keep that one quiet for now, cant have people thinking about free play.

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While I do agree that both games at once is a bit much on one plate, there is a problem with this approach.  Awhile back when I was testing the converter, I found that the file didn't load in the CK so I decided to check it in tesnip.  When I looked at the files under the soul gem header I realized that there was a problem.  While the fact that morrowind_ob.esm uses oblivion.esm as a master is not a big problem, the problem is that morroblivion uses a lot of oblivion resources and items from the oblivion.esm.  In other words, without the oblivion master we would have to create and manually place a lot of items (the ones that come to mind at the moment are silverware and soul gems).  To save some work it may be best to convert the oblivion.esm, and make it a required download, but not start work on it until we are nearly complete with morrowind.

Ice: Yeah I thought the problem with doors might be related to the cell names.  Hopefully we are right and it will be fixed in the next version of the converter.

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This is true, however when moving Morrowind to Skyrim I'm pretty sure we can then instead use Skyrim's soulgems and etc instead of converting over Oblivions meshes. 
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While we could indeed use the skyrim models, we would still have to manually place every reference of those items.  They are not just using oblivion models, they are oblivion items.  Removing the reference would cause the items to disappear from the file entirely.  :)

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Hmm yes that is true, I didn't think about that. Could we maybe somehow copy the Skyrim meshes but rename them to the Oblivions file name? That way you would get Skyrim meshes but wouldn't have to update everything?

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I am not deep into this,so am proberly wrong,but if you just copy the skyrim meshes and rename them to the oblivion file name, they would still have the same REF ID`s and would need new ID`s in the CK.?

 

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Ouch. Morrowind's reliance on Oblivion REFIDs is going to cause a problem. I'm swinging back toward a 'simultaneous' conversion. If that is the best option, I'll concede that we must work on Morrowind first... but haveing both may be necessary...

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Hey Ice, thanks for getting what I was trying to say.  I don't really remember the terminology all that well for this, and couldn't really get my point across.

Edit:

Also, this reliance extends to textures.  Most of those pink textures I had were caused by absent Oblivion textures, and I had to extract my entire Oblivion - Textures.bsa to get them to go away.  We will either need to require Oblivion or create or find suitable replacement textures.

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YES, Morroblivion does depend on Oblivion and SI allot at this moment. Is it not possible to import all oblivion and SI dependencies into Morroblivion before we convert to the Skyrim standard ?

 

We need to make Morroblivion independent from Oblivion and SI before conversion.

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I see what you're saying Shadow. I also see Unknown's point. I like Unknown's better, that way we keep files separate and smaller, but I guess the quicker (and maybe dirtier method) would be to run Oblivion.esm (and models?) through the converter. I really don't like the second idea, because it would suck to require the player to have Oblivion even though he might only be interested in Morrowind and Skyrim. But if that's what we gotta do, so be it.
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Hey guys; it's been a while since I stopped by so forgive me if this is obsolete / utterly useless to any progress that's already been made:

http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/downloads/file.php?id=18352

I'm by no means a modder and don't know what the relationship is between people here and on the Nexus, but I thought that it might be worth mentioning; wouldn't know if it would come in handy. If so cool, and if not, my apologies. :)

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I believe that lets you edit the already existing landscape outside of skyrim. The problem with that is

1. It does not match the original Morrowind

2. We need morroblivion to have its own worldspace

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I'm not sure if the converter works with oblivion meshes (it probably does) but I could see if it will convert over some oblivion files also. With Chuvakin could it convert Oblivion.esm over or do we need a new converter for that?

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Yes, it should be able to convert Oblivion.esm.
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Would it be a really insane idea if we would start from scratch by not starting of from where Morroblivion v52 ended?

 

Morroblivion does depend on Oblivion and SI allot at this moment. To make Morroblivion independent from Oblivion and SI we could start at the beginning.

 

Step 1#

We take the origional Morrowind.esm

 

Step 2#

We configure the old Morroblivion converter to not replace items and links.

 

Step 3#

We convert the origional Morrowind.esm to Morrowind_ob.esm with the old converter.

 

Step 4#

We configure the new Morroblivion ( Chuvakin) converter, to convert the origional Morrowind_ob.esm to the Skyrim standard.

 

Step 5#

We will end up with a brand new Morrowind_sk.esm that has almost no dependency on Oblivion or SI based on the origional Morrowind data.

 

Step 6#

We configure the new Morroblivion ( Chuvakin) converter, to convert the new v52 Morrowind_ob.esm to the Skyrim standard.

 

Step 7#

We use all newly created Morroblivion content and port if over to the Skyrim standard.

 

Step 8#

We conbine the best parts together and end up with a better result.

 

Just an idea, I hope it’s not to insane.

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Unknown:

Chuvakin was designed for the Andoran team to use on their (very epic looking) mod, not Morroblivion.  So if the Morrowind conversion works, then Oblvion should work (and any other mod for that matter....).

S.B.

That could probably work, but it would require someone very good with Tesedit and a lot of time on their hands to do.  However, since we would technically still be using Oblivion data, then we would have to require Oblivion anyways.  In fact the only way I can think of to not make Oblivion required would be to convert without it and redo a lot of improvements and hand place a lot of objects that were dependent on Oblivion, which would set us back a ton.

Edit:

S.B. that would not work for a few reasons.  First of all, it would set us back thousands of object placement fixes, and many new additions.  Also, I have tried out the esp converter and it is in fact responsible for replacing many morrowind items with oblivion items.  Thus we would have the same dependency.  While I suppose it might fix some of the dependencies, I don't think we should lightly start again from the begining unless absolutely necessary.

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I never got the point why anyone would replace original Morroblivion content by use of Oblivion or SI content by linking the .ESM data directly to it. That was totally unnecessary and now we got a massive issue due to that action.

 

Morroblivion on the Skyrim standard will need to become totally independent of any external content. All objects in Morroblivion_sk.esm will need to be indipendant. If some one wants to replace a object for a Skyrim object then the object will need to be included into Morroblivion_sk.esm total package and not linked to.

 

EDIT:

I you want to replace something I usualy only replace the Model or Textures.

Replacing stuff on .ESM .ESP level is just asking for trouble.

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Well some of it was necessary, or much easier to do than recreate from scratch, but I also do not understand why some objects were replaced.  I actually liked some of the replaced morrowind objects (like soul gems) better than the Oblivion ones.  Oh well, I guess all of this happened in the past, and there is nothing we can do.

So what are everyone elses' thoughts on this?  Should we convert and require Oblivion, or perhaps somehow remove those dependencies, or just convert and accept the losses in the Morrowind_sk.esm masterfile of those Oblivion objects.

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Wow. We've uncovered a hornet nest.

First off, the reason we have Oblivion objects replacing origional Morrowind objects: Plain and simple, it's better graphics. This, and less work, led to the descision to use Oblivion elements. Remember, they're converter was much less sophisticated than ours. At least, I believe that's the reasoning.

So, what exactly are our actually attainable choices right now? I'm seeing this:

1) Create Morrowind_sk AND Oblivion_sk. Morrowind is dependant on Oblivion. We convert our current Morrowind_ob (ver 52) and make it relient on the newly converted Oblivion_sk. We focus our work on Morrowind_sk first, only updated Oblivion_sk where necessary for the Morrowind_sk. Over time people can choose what npcs / meshes /quests they want to work on in either world. The two grow together.

+ Easiest, most expansive, "faster"

- "Dirtier" huge project that could get messy fast / lose steam. Requires people to buy THREE elder scrolls games, instead of two.

Conclusion: my favorite choice, but I loved Oblivion.

 

2) Start from scratch, forget Oblivion. 

+Avoids problems with option 1

- Isn't this converter designed for converting Oblivionto Skyrim and not Morrowind to Skyrim? Would this work? We'd also lose all our fixes and updates from our version 52. (We could use tessnip to get some of that back, but honestly that sounds really, really messy).

Conclusion: A lot more work, but would give people more choice.

.... That's the only two options I'm really percieveing in my mind at the moment. Unless someone can provide new info, my vote is definitely option 1, even though it means people have to buy 3 games. It's not great, but considering I already have all three games, I definitely like this option, lol.

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Dont forget SI, Morroblivion depends on SI aswell.

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Ya know, SB could be right on this. If we use the old Morroblivion converter to make the original Morrowind_ob.esm, then send this through Chuvakin, we'd have a similar result to what we have now (but without the dependency on Oblivion), since the upgrades we've made since then consist mostly of stuff like quests, NPC's, scripts, etc, which we know we'll have to do by hand anyway (and unfortunately).
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We only need a clean Morrowind_sk.ESM files with independent editor ID’s. The worldspace placement data could be replaced I think. Just copy passed the new data from v52 into the clean ESM. I do not think any work will be lost by doing it this way.

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I say that we go ahead and convert Oblivion over to and not try to redo everything. Most people have Oblivion, and even if they don't it's fairly cheap. If we go ahead and do it this way we could save a lot of time and then keep improving it. However, removing the Oblivion dependency would be nice. That's just what I think though.

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Hm, guys. I do not think that it's a good idea to run converter again and begin from the zero point for the following reasons.

First of all, not all of the items was in proper place or even do not converted by the original morrowind converter, so we will need to add them again, but in the 0.52 version we already have them.

Furthermore, dependens from Oblivion and SI lies in the fact that Morrobl using meshes and textures. Befor or later we will convert Obl to Sky and it doesn't hard to convert all needed textures and meshes by the Macorn's NifC.

Finally, convertion of the already existing work made by team in morrooblivion (adding new meshes etc.) will be lost by the converting Morr to Obl again and it's an apparantely drawback.

In future I think meshes and textures replacers will be made and problem with Oblivion dependence is going to expire.

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All right, I'm convinced, let's go with bringing over Oblivion.
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Lol I've edited this post half a dozen times because I can't quite communicate what I'm trying to ask. Maybe this time it will sound right. :)

From an outsider's perspective without understanding of the processes and tools available, I see you guys as having to decide between two things: Porting Morrowind and Oblivion to be independent worlds of Skyrim, or porting Morroblivion itself as it currently exists (therefore making Morrowind a world within a world within a world). I know that the programming itself is in debate, but I was wondering if there was a general consensus of how the finished product should play- if there's been agreement of what you'd like the finished product to be.

In simpler terms, I know that there's ongoing discussion as to which of the choices- individually converting Morrowind and Oblivion or converting Morroblivion itself- are more troublesome, but I'm curious as to whether there's yet been agreement as to what end result is preferred.

I have no concern either way; my vote is for whatever is easiest and most satisfactory to the programmers. I'm just trying to familiarize myself with the direction of the project.

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I would like to eventually see both Morrowind and Oblivion in Skyrim, however I think we should  convert morroblivion over because there has been many new improvements made to Morrowind by the team, which would make it better for Skyrim rather then going with the original Morrowind.esm. For the Oblivion part, it shouldn't be that hard to convert that over as well. I just think its a better idea to go with the person owning all three games in order to play the other 2 in Skyrim. Starting over completely from  scratch when converting over Morrowind and Oblivion just seems like more trouble, and it would definititely be easier if we focused on converting morroblivion over. These are just my thoughts though. 

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And there is also the important fact that by requiring the player to have to have,or buy,all 3 games,it should help,as we are underground already,and if the content was ported without needing oblivion,we might have to go deeper underground.?:)

 

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Unkownone and Ironmans posts above, I totally agree with.

What I want in a *finished* product:

I load up my Skyrim and start going south. I go through a border gate and end in Cyrodiil. From Cyrodiil or from Skyrim I can take a boat to Vvardenfell. Both ports have their own game world. It'd be the first steps toward the fabled "Elder Scrolls X: Tamriel".


ps. A bunch of people seem to be experienceing double posts. In my mad mod power hunger I've been deleteing the second posts. ;)

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All things being equal, my preference would be for Morrowind to be taken full advantage of first and to appear as its own world space in Skyrim (maybe accessed through a portal in Riften or something), with Oblivion to get the same attention afterwards. It seems like this would allow everyone to focus on one "half" and release it and then be able to turn their attention to the remaining half.

Again, this is all things being equal which I know they aren't, and not taking into account what may be possible or efficient. Besides, I don't really want my opinion on the matter to have any serious weight because of my unfamiliarity with the work involved and the fact that I'll be happy with whatever form this project ultimately takes. I offer it only as a "my two cents if anyone asks" kind of thing.

Either way it sounds complicated; I can see now that a single plan really has to be agreed upon for the project to steamroll since the possible routes to the end seem so different.

 

EDIT: So Ice, you're saying that your preference would ultimately be for all three world spaces to exist fully and independently (yet obviously still governed by the Skyrim graphics and gameplay mechanics), allowing a player in one to directly travel to either of the other two at any given time?

That's the style that I myself would enjoy, and I especially like the idea of being able to visit Cyrodil by simply walking through the border gate portal that I'd forgotten about in southern Skyrim. Hypothetically assuming that yours is the end goal that everyone on the team agreed on, would it be best to work on the two earlier games one at a time or simultaneously? It seems that reaching this consensus may be the biggest hurdle at the moment.

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First off, I want to make sure that noone thinks I am trying to take control or anything with this post, especially since I am so new (though I actually believe I am approaching the first anniversary of when I first found Morroblivion).  I just think that there is a lot of talking and no plan to agree on.  So I am making this to try and get thoughts organized, then people can give their opinion on it and make as many changes as are necessary.

1) I believe that we have decided to convert Oblivion along with Morroblivion, but not to begin work on it until we are done with Morrowind (in order to preserve changes that are dependant on Oblivion.esm).  Or at least that seems to be the consensus among most of the members.  We need to have someone convert both .esm files and give Morrowind_sk.esm Oblivion as a master (since it is removed on converting).  Any volunteers?

2) After conversion, we would make only vital changes to Oblivion_sk.esm and then set it aside.  We would then proceed to work on Morrowind_sk.esm as outlined in the action plan, step by step.

3) We could then slowly remove the Oblivion dependencies one at a time, and eventually we could make it unnecessary to set Oblivion_sk.esm as a master, and perhaps include those changes in an optional file.

I believe this plan addresses some main concerns, so are there any thoughts on this beginning of a plan?  I would especially welcome any additions or criticisms.  It is not much but I believe it is at least something to go on.

Edit:

When I picture the completion of this project, I think of the same thing as Ice.  Though I really think that has to do with separate travel mods, they should hopefully not affect the master much.  We should just remember to design the master so as to allow these kind of ideas to work.

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Miketheratguy- yeah that's  what I'm thinking.

Shadow: I agree with you completely on the first two points, but not the third. I think we should, after getting morrowind close to done, start working on Oblivion_sk, instead of weaning ourself off of it. BUt so long as everyone agrees on steps one and two, we can do a LOT of work before we get to step 3, regardless of the choice we make.

Wow, I just typed that whole paragraph above while not looking at the screen. :D

 

So ya, lets start with steps one and two, knowing that whether we keep or lose Oblivion_sk, that will be done after our focus / energy on morrowind_sk has waned.

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So it IS agreed that both Morrowind and Oblivion should be converted simultaneously? Is this because it would be easier to convert the Morroblivion files (and clear out the Morrowind - Oblivion dependencies) that are already in place rather than re-convert both of the games from scratch?

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Cool.  I wasn't sure about step three, but it seemed like there were people that didn't like the dependencies.  So I threw it in there to see whether or not we could reach a consensus and actually begin work.

By the way, does anyone know how we could go about manually converting NPCs.  I think I could try my hand at a few (probably not all) of them because converting seems straightforward.  I know my way around the Morrowind CS, and can at least get by, however the Oblivion CS was so different that I never really learned, and now I don't really know what corresponds to what in the CK, or what boxes to check.  If someone could put together a short tutorial for me and others that might want to help that would be great.  No pressure on anyone, but I want to at least help begin to move this project along.  If noone wants to that is perfectly fine too.  I could just find a easier project or figure it out on my own. Thanks. :)

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Manually? I worked on that for Bloodmoon Creatures. I basically pulled up the morrowind and oblivion cks and compared the two, copying all of the stats from one to the other. You should do the same for the oblivion and skyrim sets. Since you're familiar with the Morrowind CS, it shouldn't be very different for the other sets.

Check it out and see what you get and what you don't. For things that you don't get, ask and IF I can help I will, but other people on here know a lot more than I do. but yeah...

 

Mike: basically because converting from scratch would be... near impossible. If we need to wean off oblivion, we can, but hopefully people will keep it...

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Am I losing the plot here,Morrowind_ob.esm is dependent on oblivion.esm?

If that is the case then how do we make a Morrowind_sk.esm from Morrowind_ob.esm without including oblivion.esm.?

 I think what I mean is that when we convert Morrowind_ob.esm to Morrowind_sk.esm in the converter it is only including the Morroblivion content,but some of that content is taken from oblivion [oblivion.esm] so that might be why there are some things missing in the CK and game.?

And they all must depend on skyrim.esm to run properly in the TES V engine.?

 

 

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Ironman: That is precisely the issue.  The lack of an Oblivion .esm is why some items don't appear ingame, even if they are supported by the converter.

Ice:  I'll look into it and see what I can do, it just might take me awhile to get used to I guess.  Oh, and I am with you.  I loved Oblivion, and would never want to abandon it, even though it is number 3 on my list....

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