[ARMOR CONCEPT] Imperial sets

with reference to the comments made by Dragomir and Taerkalith, perhaps a collar structure like the one seen in skyrim glass armor could lend some bulkiness and authority to the design. 

Edit: I remembered that It's called a gorget.

I have to say you're getting me really excited with this concept. My pick goes to #0 though. I like its subtlety and realistic touch. The armour set is already very ornamental, and it doesn't need a crazy 'epic fantasy' chest-piece to make it look imposing.

So I second Dragomir, and pick #0 with a little polish.

A quick idea for pauldrons&chestplate:

[External image]

I know it kind of goes agains what I said, but it's still just a rather small breastplate. Trying to make it a bit reminiscent of original Morrowind ebony, and the pauldrons seemed like a good opportunity to use the pointy Kirkbride idea you guys requested. It's also more gilded - the Imperial ebony I really want to have a lot of gold ornaments, to contrast the Dunmer ebony, which has no gold whatsoever. I didn't have enough time to come up with the waist/leg protection, but I think what could work here maybe is cloth skirt going over leg harness, like in this old concept of mine.
 

2 is probably the most realistic, but 1 and 3 are very interesting.
But how about giving a nod to the Skyrim's heavy armour, or at least something similar?
>Larger, flatter chest piece for engravings and ornaments. 

I like the new pauldrons 'cause fancy, and chest piece #4 followed by #2. The other chest pieces look like they are built for robots for some reason (maybe its that they are strongest where a real human being would bend, while #4 looks like it is articulated well enough to tie your own shoe).

One thing about the helmets, though. I understand that ebony has usually been fully closed-face, but I never really liked that. And it is one thing for ordinators to be faceless guards, but if someone high-level will be wearing this, we want the player to be able to look them in the eye while talking to them. I like that the helmet is long (whatever the cheek-guardy-thingies are called), but can they be opened up a bit?

#2 for me. #1 and #3 feel a little too flat and dull, and #4 feels to decorative and over the top.

1. too much Space Marine

2. too modern/ScFi

3. looks more like cloth then metal

4. good! I'd prefer a more roman or greece styled shoulder plate/helmet like in Dragomirs/Praefekts concept but we are already on war about that so let's keep it out for now ;) 

still another example: 

[External image][External image]

I second the idea of open helmets. This armor is supposed to be the opposite of the Dunmer ebony, which has a closed helmet. It would be great if the variation had an open one, especially since it's Imperial, and their helmets are pretty much never closed (aside from Skyrim's legate helm).

Did someone say more helmet ??

#4 looks pretty awesome, but #2 and #3 are good if you want less ornate. #4 does look badass if it fits with the level of ornateness they should have.

texture wise the first one I'd go with, otherwise it looks too much like glass.

I actually like these minimalistic designs pretty much, though I have to agree that adding blue and purple cloth would make it really morrowindy and cool. Furthermore I like the first Helmet on the Light Guard basic Armor, it has something of the spanish Conquistadores, which the Imperials kind of are in the weird lands of Morrowind. I'd be as simplicistic as possible regarding the armor of the guards. Otherwise it would kind of break immersion.

I think we could get by with a closed helmet for ebony. The people who would wear them are going to be NPCs like the Duke's guards. Major quest giver types that wear ebony armor will probably just not wear a helmet, but maybe have one nearby. Same is true for Dunmer. Venim isn't going to be wearing a helmet when you talk to him in general - only when you duel him, probably.

If we go with a closed helmet for any of the imperial armors, this would be the one.

Nexos

THE PAULDRONS

Dragomir's design works well, but i think this Vegeta shape is something that was especially iconic on templar armor. We might want to go more "knightly" and, for once, round and segmented on the bulky dude's armors. I'm currently working on templar armor, and i can promise you it already has these pauldrons. No worries, you'll have them.
This pauldron shape doesn't allow us to use the same cape, which i liked. [External image]

Praefect's looks so segmented Dragomir will have a heart attack, but i kinda like it. The big rim is maybe too much, though.

Me confuse, is that supposed to be the Duke's guard, or Templar then? If it's not templar, it should by all means NOT be ebony.

I like the new cuirass and helmet, and the more textured (less smooth) look I see on the helmet and pauldron. I'm not sure I like the purple highlights as much, probably for the same reason I like the texturing—I never really liked the look of ebony armor until Skyrim, and there it looks like some super metal. In Morrowind it looked a bit like lacquered wood, but I have trouble taking that seriously as awesome heavy armor. For lore reasons I guess it has to be "a rare form of volcanic glass buried in the lava flows from Vvardenfell's Red Mountain," and that could permit it to have whatever highlight colors and be just as smooth as we want. But just from an aesthetic "this looks intimidating" standpoint, I think the color scheme of the 12/08/2015 - 16:58 post works better. If we stay with purple highlights, perhaps a darker shade of purple?

That looks great Nexos. Nice, and you kept my helmet idea [External image]
I know you guys have probably started modelling already and Smarti has probably made something amazing, but

Great Minds think alike.

(Ebony Imperial Armor for Beyond Skyrim: Morrowind)
[External image]

Yours does look a bit better than mind though.

Looking beatitiful Nexus. The purple might be a bit too bright for my taste. I'm also a bit sad the moth and dragon chestpiece from Praefect didn't get incorporated.

Ebony in the ES games tends to be pretty black and not purple. I think Smitehammer can elaborate on this, but the ebony comes from the heart of the mountain, which is why it is a rare resource and not necessarily equivalent to the real world equivalent. So in short, I'd drop almost all the purpleness, as this was a point of contention with the existing ebony set.

Ebony is the blood of the 'dead god' Lorkhan, spreading out in veins (ore veins are literal here... and arteries I suppose) from where the Heart of Lorkhan had originally landed in the shallow sea that rose around the heart as Vvardenfell before the Dwemer carved it free and began to harness its power.

Other artifacts with close ties to daedric or aedric lords such as the Amulet of Kings are also possibly made of red ebony (perhaps the fresh blood of similar beings?).

To work ebony, a smith must heat the ebony to a point where it flows liquid as blood again. While the hardened blood is somewhat crystalline, it is possible to liquify the ebony and pour it, and mold it.

'Daedric' armors are made when the still-living power of a powerful daedra is bound to ebony in a ritual few know outside of Oblivion. Of course in Skyrim, this ritual has been revealed as simply chucking a daedra heart in there - as anyone who's smithed 500 iron daggers can tell you.

Anyway, glass is volcanic green glass, like green obsidian. Ebony is quite different, and it might be good to take time discussing what it should look like.

I think the vanilla version has a lot of aesthetic elements that are just too good, too unique, or too iconic to get rid of imo, and I don't think we should stray too far away from it. Hell, I'd be up for a 1:1 remake of the vanilla, personally. 
That mostly goes for pauldrons, helmet (don't forget the crest thing), and 

I know nostalgia should often be indulged, but I honestly prefer Nexos's concept. In terms of ornaments, the cuirass has more delicate works, meaning it looks more rare/precious, plus the overall armor looks more coherent. Also, thinking of it as part of a larger set of uniforms, it has a few elements that links it to the other imperial armors. And even if it's not a replica of what the Templars wore in vanilla Morrowind, it actually puts together a lot of iconic parts of imperial armors, making it look a lot like what I remember when I think "Imperial".

Praefect made more as templar armor.

My proposition is  to go more into direction of dragonscale armor

And ugly MW's version

[External image]

Guy looks a bit like chicken

Also one small thing I will change a bit proportion of ebony armor to balance it more. More "heavy" on bottom, more "light" on top.

Cesare

I know nostalgia should often be indulged, but I honestly prefer Nexos's concept. In terms of ornaments, the cuirass has more delicate works, meaning it looks more rare/precious, plus the overall armor looks more coherent. Also, thinking of it as part of a larger set of uniforms, it has a few elements that links it to the other imperial armors. And even if it's not a replica of what the Templars wore in vanilla Morrowind, it actually puts together a lot of iconic parts of imperial armors, making it look a lot like what I remember when I think "Imperial".

On the contrary, I think special Imperial armours should be bulky, masculine, regal,and imposing. I think Nexos' version looks way to feminine, especially with those moths which people could easily mistake for butterflies (sorry Nexos :P).  

And nostalgia isn't an issue. I just think the vanilla version is perfect as is. It being consistent with the other sets shouldn't matter either, because it's 'ceremonial'. By that I mean it's a callback to 'older' Imperial fashion and tradition, like an Honour Guard. The same way the Queen's Guard dress compared to the rest of the British military, for example.  

Lukkar's armour would also be great as a separate piece (if it's even possible)  [External image]

Praefect

especially with those moths which people could easily mistake for butterflies (sorry Nexos :P). 

Well, until I didn't see previous concept I thought that they are charming butterflies too :) Btw. why moth? Cult of the Ancestor Moth? Maybe simplified dragon instead of it? Or sth like below

[External image]

Who says butterflies aren't manly? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tz4PdpfI7zY

The moths are just as much a symbol of the empire as dragons - moreso, actually. The dragon of the empire is Nafaliargus, a red dragon Tiber Septim used Targaryen-style to conquer much of Tamriel before acquiring Numidium. The moths predate this by centuries, used by what would become the Cyrodils while they were still enslaved by the Ayleids to prevent their ancestors souls from being used in profane practices, with the soul-infused silk being used to make geneology tapestries which many of the most noble families still possess today.

You kind-of saw this in Morrowind, too. The original Templar armor had moths on the bracers, and the names of most of the forts included 'moth' in them: Moonmoth, Hawkmoth, Buckmoth, Firemoth, Frostmoth.

Back to the matter at hand, I like many of Praefect's changes. I'm a fan of the more Templar-style pauldrons (since this is an ornate armor not intended for practical use) and Saivryn's breastplate is a good interpretation of the vanilla armor. I do think the plates can themselves be a little more ornate as Nexos had them (and no need for what was labeled 'h'), but splitting the breastplate like that is cool.

The only thing I don't like about Praefect's over-paint is the helmet. I just don't like how it makes the dragon look like it has a mohawk or horse-mane. It might be better to lose the dragon if we decide we want to go more in that direction, but then those wing flanges wouldn't make as much sense... Hmm. Might be worth kicking around some more ideas for the helmet?

Praefect

On the contrary, I think special Imperial armours should be bulky, masculine, regal,and imposing. I think Nexos' version looks way to feminine, especially with those moths which people could easily mistake for butterflies (sorry Nexos :P).  

First off, just having bigass pauldrons and scuplted abs is a lazy way of conveying the idea of masculinity, however that's not the subject here, so I'll drop it immediately ;)

But you do have a point: it looks more manly, which makes it ridiculous for a female character to wear the armor as is, and that for me is a mistake. As for regal and imposing, I thought it was already, but then that's a matter of opinion.

Which brings me to this:

Praefect

And nostalgia isn't an issue. I just think the vanilla version is perfect as is.

I can't argue with that, because I feel the opposite, but again, it's a matter of taste.

PraefectIt being consistent with the other sets shouldn't matter either, because it's 'ceremonial'. By that I mean it's a callback to 'older' Imperial fashion and tradition, like an Honour Guard. The same way the Queen's Guard dress compared to the rest of the British military, for example.

Good point, I guess. Although, as Templars are usually in charge in Imperial Forts, I still think there should be more of a feel that hierarchy can be observed in the uniform in the form of modulation on a common basis.

Also for moth idea how it should look. I found more "predatory", edgy example in look. Which I think it will fit more to dragon symbol.

[External image]

[External image]

Cesare

But you do have a point: it looks more manly, which makes it ridiculous for a female character to wear the armor as is, and that for me is a mistake. As for regal and imposing, I thought it was already, but then that's a matter of opinion.

Nexos

Templars, in Morrowind, were not honor guards. They were the forts commanders. What you could see as honor guards are the Duke's guards and such, who will wear the ebony armor. Red templars are warriors and leaders, not just pretty infantry.

Except the Red Templars were always a seperate knightly order you could say, that the Imperials just shoehorned into the Vvardenfell Legion command structure. Although they act as officers, they stil operate as a more or less independant military faction within the army: 
"Then add the Red Templars to the mix. Theoretically tied into the chain of command, right? But they don't really take orders from anybody but themselves. So, you say, the Imperials are a mess, just like everywhere else."   

And yeah, a lot of the stuff in my paintover are placeholder/unfinished. That includes the chest symbol thing, and the belt strips, which could be easily fixed by making the triangle ones round, or vice-a-versa. I couldn't care less about abs either, if there's more ornate stuff on it instead.   

And 'merging' doesn't make much sense either since the only style the original dragonscale has consists entirely on "BIG SCALES LOL". I would say just totally remove dragonscale from it entirely. I doubt it would be missed as much.

-Friendly banter over- 

My only complaint/suggestion is to be more conservative with empire specific imagery as there isn't much of it.

Otherwise, keep the pretty pictures going.

I don't understand what you mean by 'Roman', because I really don't see any of it, and in turn, I don't see any Imperial-specific aesthetic as well. All I can see are pauldrons reminiscent of Indoril pauldrons, Orcish skirt armour, and the neck guard design and ornamental finishings of Skyrim Elven armor. 

Overall, I really don't understand why you want to scrap the entire design of vanilla armours, at least want to include any hint of the original aesthetic elements, or any of Bethesda's reiterations. Saivryn's old concepts at least translate the vanilla design into something that still stays unique. And Fredrick's 'Ryse Roman' Imperial concepts aren't that bad because 'literal Roman' is what most people expect from Imperial armour, especially after Skyrim. 

To a lot of people (from what I've seen on social media, messageboards, and even this forum), staying true to the Imperial armours is very important because it's some of the most common armours in the game (other than Bonemold), and literally the first you see at the start of it. Most other vanilla armours aren't even relevant because you hardly see them or they look objectively bad in the first place. But whatever.
 
Other than that, I actually think the armour looks great otherwise dude. But not as Imperial armour. And actually, what you feel about Drago's Bonemold is what I feel about this lol.  But if you aren't going to take Vanilla or Skyrim aesthetics on board, then you could possibly make the pteruges more prominent, accentuate the masculine 'v-shape' (make pauldrons and chest wider/bigger) and make the back of the armour more practical-looking so the dude wearing it could actually swing his arms backwards.
I don't see the big problem with abs on female armour either. 

I dread to think how uncomfortable that shoulder contraption would be to wear. Visually while looking okay from the back, from the front it makes the silhouette look like the guy has no shoulders and a really long neck. But other than that, it might look okay on a crazy Telvanni mage, but in no way feels Imperial. I don't know, I don't see how you can critique Michael Kirkbride's "super sayian" pointy pauldrons as you called them, and then come up with something even pointier and so long they meet in the middle making it impossible to move. Maybe practicality limits my design, but I'll still advocate that some level of it, like making it look like you could at least move in an armor should be kept. And the best thing ever is when you make up a crazy armor that would actually work in reality, automatically makes the world a touch more believable.

The dorsal spine as you stressed is a thing typical for Dunmer, and I don't see much need for it here - again, makes it look less Imperial. The tassets look unnecessarily boring, like typical knight, but not quite - more like typical knight from classic fantasy (real ones were arranged differently and protected better). But then I don't think that this armor even needs tassets at all, the original Morrowind strap skirt design is actually less overused than segmented plates on hips. The cloth skirt I feel is too long, again, a tunica would feel more Imperial and less Assassin's Creed. Only thing I like about it really is the red ribbon, even the helmet is too plain (though the ornament flows nicely, it needs a more pronounced silhouette). Usually, both history and fantasy, the more someone was representative, the more they'd try to make their head look less like a bulb, adding crests, feathers, horsetails and so on. Every culture ever did it, medieval knights (which I still think are a bad reference for Imperials), and Romans included.

Praefect's first repaint looked way better IMO.
 

I third Praefect's arguments for the shoulder shape.

"A less harsh version of what Drago just said"

I took the liberty of repainting Praefect's repaint (insert Inception joke here).

[External image]

I mainly focused on the shape of pauldrons, made them a bit less cumbersome and thinner than Praefect's, which in my opinion looks a bit more elegant. Little red bands are there partly for decoration and detail, partly to suggest how the pauldrons are mounted. A few ornaments give it more detail, that I felt was needed in these parts.

This shape of cloth pieces under the pauldrons can actually be armored as well and was used in some late Polish hussar armors - karacena:
 

[External image]

I lost the scale rows, but they could work fine with this one I think. Instead, I went with the cloth to be purely decorative, silk with a moth and ancestor runes embroidery, I think it's a nice pattern. The shape of these "sleeves" also follows the same shape the cloth skirt does, thus adding some nice shape reference and continuation, and looking more elegant (less random) in effect.

Under the whole thing I added a shirt of little scales, reminiscent of lorica squamata. These typical for larp triangular large scales are both impractical and in my opinion pretty ugly in general. Tiny ones are easier to texture, right (less bumpy) and they look just richer. I like it, they're not mandatory though, and I'd be fine with not adding these.

I gave the dragon a raised tail, to aim at the player in dialogue, like a scorpion tail. That gives it a nice threatening look, and breaks the otherwise simplistic silhouette.

I got rid of that belt hanging loosely across the hip. It fits for foot soldiers, but looks way too casual for a high officer templar guard uniform. It looks way more proffessional and representative without it, I think it was totally unnecessary.

Btw. what does sign mean in the center place on the chest (Right below neck on overpainted concepts)? Or this is just random doodle?

Also I know this is fast overpaint but dragon on the chest is cut in half. But I understand this is not some final version.

I like the designs for templar but most people here, my fave is Nexos', and thats just personal preference.

But I'm going to ASK YOU all to come to an agreement on this.
If you think your opinion and making it heard is more important than getting ONE armour  DESIGNED (not even made in 3d) of 50-60 armours in the game, which is only 5% of the entire game, then by all means keep arguing.

Dont like the design? Dont sodding wear it then.

The only people who really have to worry are those who are making it, ie, mostly smarti and my nose poking in.

Or maybe you could just compromise, let go of ego/opinions on ONE armour, and move on, and focus on OTHER jobs.

Ever heard of those nightmare stories of terrible game developers whos project was delayed and the game came out and it was shit?
Its because of stuff like this.

Its better to have an armour you disagree with once MADE than a game not ever released/delayed further.



 

But then why were new concepts made, when we already had a bunch even before Nexos'? I don't think there were that many people who even had a problem with Fredrik's old concepts in the first place. Seems like a waste of time to me, like you said, when we could have had them done in 3D ages ago..

So then it seems that stuff is designed according to the top few's own tastes and inclinations ("scrap everything and redesign it to what I think is looks good"), rather than according to what the target audience would expect from the mod (remake/"what would Bethesda do?"). I just think that's a very risky position to hold.

But maybe I'm clutching at straws, and I sure as hell don't have much authority here anyway so who cares what I, or what many others, have to say. 

You can't avoid discussions if you want the department more open to the public. And sacrificing all attention to detail for the sake of rushing the product out quicker is why a big majority of current games suck donkey arse :P Nostalgic armor is something one has to be especially careful with, giving good reasons for all the changes, or else hyped Skywind fans pick up pitchforks and torches. And whether you like it or not... All this is being made either for ourselves, or for these people. Not for money, but out of passion and love for Morrowind, so either way doing justice to the source material should be top priority. That's just my thoughts on the topic.

I think you are a talented artist with alot of creativity. You created something new and unique for the imperials, something that shows nicely what you're capable of doing.

But we all together aren't making our own game. We are recreating one that we all love and want to play again in a modern game engine. We love what it was and how it was. And that's why I think we should keep the vanilla armours, surely add some new flavour to it but mainly stick to the original.

I personally might not be as much as an active contributer as you are, but I'm not allone with this opinion. 11 out of 18 people who commented about the style on the social fb criticised the complete sratch of the armour. Most posts on this thread also do consist of discussion about that or about iconic elements that you didn't include.

Give vanilla armour a try :)

A thorough and civil deliberation, well said by all! kudos!

I'm not gonna quote you point by point, but I have some objections. There's definetly at least one guard at the entrance to Ebonheart castle wearing the full set with helmet. He just doesn't have a name so you can't find him on UESP (speaking of actually playing the game). Keep in mind many players will wear it too, as it's the best heavy armor available early on (unless we make it different, which I wouldn't mind). But that's irrelevant, what's important is that I don't see why it should be an excuse at all.

As far as templar lore goes, they weren't pushed to Morrowind to just do office work because they're unfit for fighting, but because they're batshit crazy, drink dragon blood to get into a battle rage and other legions fear them. That's of course Kirkbride's words, not official lore - official enough for me though.

By stripe skirt I meant having it split into bits, kept it pretty much like Praefect did it (and how it was in Morrowind). I wouldn't mind having two at the front and back, and two at the sides, which would fit Skyrim's animation skeleton. And leather doesn't act like paper, I wore this kind of Byzantine armor once and it didn't limit leg movement at all.

I never said your pauldrons are elven, I said they'd fit on a Telvanni mage, because they make the guy look like a crazy humanoid crustcean. The original Morrowind ones do actually look similar to Indoril, but please in future, if you're to compare something at least use the actual source material:

[External image]


Also, nobody said that the pauldrons have to be exactly like vanilla, nor have I thought that our repaints are. But what we were saying is that the armor needs to have some resemblence to the original. You can take it and interpret it your way, add some things, get rid of others, but with this particular one scrapping everything is probably not a good idea.

[External image]

Also, you wanted a side view of that helmet idea, it was just a quick proposition, various things can be done with it though:

[External image]

All these to some degree imitate the crest shape from the original (without making it an obvious pseudo mohawk), and I'm sure it could be refined further to even more elegant shapes. Still better for the silhouette than just plain barbute.