Idle Banter Collaboration Thread - Writers, post here!

Looks good, Krys!

I would have some advice for your Argonian-speak, though. At the moment, there's two glaring things that stand out to me when reading many of these new lines:

First, for some reason they often seem to briefly shift into speaking like Yoda - an example is in On-Wan's lines, where she says, "Came to the Argonian Embassy to be free, this one did." I mean, yes, it makes sense grammatically and all, and could even be considered poetic, but it also happens to be an iconic Star Wars phrasing that could throw many, including myself, off the beat a little bit. Not a big deal, just slightly different wording/structure would be nice to avoid that confusion.

Second, and this is probably something you noticed as you were writing these, Argonian pronoun usage can make complex sentences confusing as all heck. At the moment, it sometimes is a little bit difficult to decipher who is being talked about in some of your lines, because you refer to the same person as "it," "this one," "healer," etc. all from the same speaker. The best way to avoid confusion is to only use one specific pronoun for character. Argonians will always refer to themselves as "this one" (An important note; I say "always," but of course you are free to bend the rules a little where you think it is fitting). They will usually refer to the people they are speaking to as "it." And they will typically refer to other, third parties as "that one" or "those ones." So, to avoid confusing who is being talked about, an Argonian should usually avoid addressing third parties as "it," or the person they are speaking to as "this one," etc. And, of course, Argonians can always use names and titles to describe people, to avoid over-using these pronouns and making things very hard to decipher.

Oh, and one more small thing. I don't know if Khajiits would ever be referred to as "two-legged cats." It sounds a little awkward to start off with, plus the fact that I can't recall any regular four-legged cats in Tamriel aside from Skyrim's sabrecats, which would probably seem rarer and more absurd to any Argonian than Khajiits themselves. That's just my thought, though, completely non-lore-based. I could be completely mistaken about that, in which case, ignore me.

Anyways, aside from those points, I really like these new lines! It's always nice seeing bland NPCs brought to life with fresh dialog. Especially well-written dialog! :)

These are some very nice improvements, Krys! I'm glad to see that you've got a much stronger grasp on the Argonian dialect now. Perhaps others may have some input, but at the moment, I'm quite pleased with what you have. I can't wait to see your writing for the Skyrim Mission!

Nice work, Krys! I like this new stuff! As always, though, I am honor-bound to point out at least a few things that I feel could use tweaking.

First and foremost, be wary, because some of these dialog exchanges are starting to get really lengthy. I can tell that you would be a good scriptwriter, because you have a knack for lengthy exposition and character development therein. However, you have to keep in mind that these are supposed to be very short exchanges that the player can run by and still catch most of it. Having too many long scenes between characters can get awkward and frankly a little tedious for most players to sit through, so we want to try and keep these dialogs to no more than four or five lines if we can help it. We want enough dialog to enhance the player's understanding of a character but not so much that it threatens to overwhelm the character, if that makes sense.

Also, on that note, try to avoid three-person conversations, as it is much harder to implement from a programming perspective. For the sake of easing the burdens of the people who actually have to put this stuff we're writing into the game, we want to steer clear of writing three-way exchanges like that of Briring, Ingokning, and Eiruki. That's an easy fix, though; Eiruki could just be speaking to one of them.

As for actual writing style and fluency: in this one, it's quite good. Most of the phrasing is smooth and comes off the tongue smoothly, and dialect is solid. One exchange that irked me a little, though, was the conversation between J'Zhirr and Okan-Shei. Maybe it was just the frequent repetition of the words "before" and "meal" in every line of that encounter, but it just seemed repetitive and clunky, as if the two were just parroting the same sentence back and forth, albeit slightly tweaked. I do like the concept of those lines, but you might want to see if you can trim down some of that repetition.

Sorry if this review is a bit of a setback; I realize this means you'll have to cut back on a lot of your scenes, which could potentially mean gutting a lot of the meaning behind them. I know you'll find a way to make it work, though. ;)

Hope to see more!

Well, I figure it's about time I did some actual writing myself, and tonight I had the itch, so here we go: My submission for the Suran Tradehouse. I expect the same level of criticism from you guys that I've been giving to you! :)

Wow, twentyenginerunner and Willowisp, these kinds of lines are EXACTLY what we're looking for! They're short, plentiful, and well-written. And you've stayed quite true to the personalities of the characters as well, which is also a plus. I really hope you guys can stay with us and continue writing for more cells! MattMacob, nice start! I hope to see more from you, too!

That being said, I do of course have to point a few minor things, as I always do.

Twentyenginerunner, I love your dialog. It is succinct and sums up people's personalities quite well. There is one scene, though, between Dalam and Llemisa, that bothers me. Dalam starts out the conversation by lamenting the fact that there are outlanders helping them out, but when Llemisa agrees, Dalam all of a sudden does a 180 and begins to argue for the importance of having these outlanders in the operation. It would be nice if you could find a way to rework the conversation to still convey the same ideas without this minor confusion.

Willowisp, I am quite impressed. You certainly dished this out quickly, and it's some really high quality stuff. I like that you also included individual mumblings, too, which really add to the environment. You know, to be honest, I'm having trouble finding any criticisms for what you've written so far. I haven't spotted any character inconsistencies, or grammatical issues, or anything of the sort. I think my only request might be to write a few extra exchanges. I saw your reasoning for not including dialog between the mouths, but I think that it might be nice to actually add that in. True, they will all be standing on their podiums, but they are in the same room, and it wouldn't be unheard of for a few that are next to each other to have a short exchange. Considering the differences of all their masters, I would assume the mouths have their share of differences too, and might even have hushed bickering between themselves when they think nobody is listening. Just some food for thought.

MattMacob, your writing is nice from what I've seen so far, but there are some major issues that need to be addressed. First of all, and this is the more minor one, make sure that you're watching your grammar when you write, because an NPC that's tripping up on their words is usually the easiest way to break the immersion of a player. Also, making sure these mistakes aren't present makes the lives of our voice actors much easier. For instance, look at Dulnea's mispelling of "council" as "cousil," or Alvis's mispelling of "voices" as "vioces." Although this may seem like a minor concern, you never know; a voice actor may not know what you meant to say and actually read it as "cousil."

The other concern I had with your writing is that a lot of what characters are saying doesn't really make sense in the context of their personalities, or of the conversation they are currently engaged in. In the exchange between Itermerel and Alvis, neither of the two are saying things in accordance with their character. Itermerel is a mage and scholar who clearly isn't planning to stay at the Eight Plates for long, as one of the player's earlier missions involves escorting him somewhere else. The idea of him, a somewhat haughty Mages guild member, talking in such an inferior manner to Alvis seems out of place. Alvis' dialog in this scene seems even stranger. According to the Founder's Helm quest and the way Alvis talks to the player, he's a genuinely terrible person. He's blunt, he's mean, and he's pretty stupid. And he probably doesn't give a damn about Balmora's honor, either. He stole this helmet, and wearing it isn't honoring anyone. He's just proud of his accomplishment in stealing it. Alvis may be a guard, but that doesn't mean he's a good one. So the fact that he would be so meek and insist on wearing it for any honorable purpose at all doesn't really make any sense.

I feel similarly about the exchange between Alvis and Traven. Again Alvis is a pretty cruddy guard, corrupt and stupid, but that's not really what bothers me about this scene. Traven is trying to get Alvis to investigate into these voices, but Alvis replies with a quote of Vvardenfell law that, to be honest, makes no sense in the context of the request. All that quote does is list the punishments for various crimes, which has nothing to do with Traven's request. And yet Traven goes on through the conversation acting as if that quote was a rebuttal, which it really wasn't. If I were you, I'd take out the quote entirely, as it doesn't really achieve it's intended purpose at all and would only confuse the player.

So, don't get me wrong, Matt. Your writing is good, and I don't mean to scare you off. What you have so far definitely needs to be rewritten, but that's normal for most people who are just starting to write. It takes a while to get a feel for script-writing, especially when you're writing for a bizarre fantasy-world where characters may not always act the way you'd expect them to. I would recommend that you take some time and really practice, and when you've got some fresh lines you're happy with, send them our way and we'll be happy to go over them with you.

Thanks, everyone! Your contributions are greatly valued, as always!

Hey Matt, thanks for understanding! When I'm writing for characters, here's how I usually try to decipher their personalities. First, I look at quests, much like you have already done. If I see they are linked to a quest, I follow the link to that quest and try to find out EXACTLY how the NPC is involved. In Alvis' case, I clicked on the link for the "Founder's Helm" mission, and discovered that Alvis stole the helm from House Redoran. Already, that tells me that he is a rather shifty person who is more than willing to break the law if it suits his needs. The second thing I check is any samples of the NPC's original dialog that I can find. On the UESP guide, most NPC pages usually include a short list of quotes, which can really give you a feel for how they speak and react to situations. Going back to Alvis, I saw that some of his lines included, "I stole it fair and square" and "Fine. Take the stupid helm. But you're a momma's boy and so is your stupid Founder." Clearly, this guy is not the brightest, nor the most honorable. Now, these two things take highest priority.

But there are a few more things you can look at if you can't find examples of these and are desperate for information. The four pieces of information I use as a last resort are the NPC's race, class, guild affiliation and location:

An NPC's race can often give crucial insights into their character, as many tend to come with their own stereotypes. High Elves tend to be haughty and judgmental, Nords are usually boisterous, loud, and focused on honor, Imperials often are very persuasive and in some cases manipulative, etc. If you have any questions about other racial stereotypes, feel free to ask.

An NPC's class can very often dictate their personality, too. If you see an NPC on the wiki who is listed as a certain class, say, "barbarian," you can click on that class name to learn all about the traits and general personalities of people of that class. This can really help you come up with good conversation topics, too, if you're stumped for ideas. The conversation I wrote between Jaime and Ashumanu of the Suran Tradehouse, for instance, revolves around the idea that Jaime is the Crusader class, which means that she hunts monsters and evil things in the name of justice and purity.

Guild affiliation can be another big one, too. If the UESP shows that a character is a member of the Mages Guild, it means that they place a strong emphasis on magic, and would place value in learning and discipline (for the most part).

Lastly, if you really can't find anything else, just go by their location. If the cell you're writing for is a Telvanni tower, the people there are probably going to be studious, but perhaps a little on the eccentric side as well. If you're writing for a bar like the Eight Plates, there will probably be more "common folk" there, who are less well educated, and there will probably be some real scumbags there, too.

Now remember, these last four are a LAST RESORT.  Quest affiliation and original quotes should be your primary material for writing an NPC's dialog, because these two are UNDENIABLE facets of an NPC's personality. These are the things that these specific individuals actually did. All the other traits (race, class, etc.) are based on broad generalizations, that a specific NPC might not necessarily adhere too. Take Alvis, again. If we were writing only going by his guild affiliation, which is a guard, he would seem honorable and willing to uphold the law. But when we look at his actual actions and original dialog in the game, we can clearly see that this is not the case.

If worst comes to worst, a little bit of creative embellishment never hurts. Just don't go too overboard with it. :) I hope this helps!

Now, on to your other question. You really don't have to format these things any specific way. Eventually, we'll be putting all of these on one big document, but until then, just format your dialog however is most comfortable for you. As long as we can read it, anything's fine.

I look forward to seeing your progress! Just let me know if you have any more questions.

ATTENTION ALL WRITERS! PLEASE READ! SUPER IMPORTANT! READ THIS! I CANNOT STRESS THIS ENOUGH! READ! READ! READ!

Okay, so. Real talk time. I've just updated the signup sheet to show people's actual progress on the things they've signed up for. "Complete" means that they've submitted their work, and it has at least passed an initial review. It doesn't have to be absolutely perfect, as it will go through one last phase of editing far in the future, but it is generally accepted as decent dialog. "In Progress" means that the writing definitely still needs some reviewing and proofreading, but at the very least an initial draft has been submitted to show that it is being worked on. "Incomplete" means that I still haven't seen any trace of it.

Now, I suggest that you take a look at that new signup sheet. Just follow the link at the top of this thread. My oh my, that's a lot of red. A lot of people who have signed up for responsibilities that they haven't taken seriously. Most of the people who are reading this aren't to blame. Aurabelle, Krys, all you new guys, you're doing great. But if there's one thing that this recategorization has shown me, it's that we need to do some cleaning out. Without further ado, I introduce to you:

THE "NOT DEAD" CHECK-IN

This is a tool for me to see who is actually still invested in this project. I've categorized all my authors into three sections, "Regulars," "No-Shows," and "The Lost." The regulars are the writers i see almost every day as of right now, who I'm not to concerned about. Those in "The Lost" category are those who did some initial correspondence, but haven't shown their faces since. These are possibly the authors I'm most concerned about. The "No-Shows" are those who signed up but never got in touch at all. Chances are, they'll stay that way.

If you're a regular, you don't need to worry about the following instructions. Just keep doing what you're doing. If you are in either of the other two categories, however, YOU MUST send me a PM (yes, a PM, not a thread post) telling me that you're still alive and writing. We've reached a point in this project where you NEED to be doing SOMETHING. Tests or no tests, homework or no homework, you need to be making at least some effort to hold up your end of the bargain, however little. If I do not receive this message within 3 days, you lose your claim. If you still have half-finished writing on the table and have since dropped off communication, that writing will either be removed or finished by someone else. Please don't take offense if you find yourself on either of the latter two lists. This is a crucial process to ensure that our signup sheet isn't clogged by nonexistent writers and to keep the creative process running smoothly.

Now, the list:

Regulars:

Aurabelle, Krysalynne, MattMacob, Willowisp, Smitehammer, Twentyenginerunner, Michaelstao, Yours Truly, Seifross2010, Sputnick, Electricwestern, Jakepravoo

The Lost:

MrBleuGames, ppm4fy, 3quency, Ruckus1995, Theimmortalmoo

No-Shows:

Atticusdragon, Wulfy213, Salem Hollows, Orc-Schmork, Balthazar21, Kienai

Lost, and No-Shows, send me a PM within THREE DAYS to show me that you're still involved in this process, or your name will be removed from the signup sheet/this project. And don't worry, you're not in trouble. This is just the tool I'm using to make sure I know who's still with us and who isn't. There's a very good chance that some of you listed under "No-Shows" will have been here the whole time, and just quiet, which is okay. No hard feelings, but think of this as a Spring Cleaning for the writers.

Seifross, Yours Truly, great to see you're still with us! [External image] The list has been updated accordingly.

Willowisp, sorry I've been so late in reviewing your latest submission. I really like the lines you've added for the mouths. That's exactly the kind of stuff I was looking for! Your "miscellaneous" lines are very good, too. Yes, there should be at least a few people actually passing by, so you don't have to worry about that. My only recommendation for these would actually be to replace a lot of your exclamation points with periods in the advertising lines of the stallkeepers, or find a way to mellow out what they say a bit. The reason for this is because while there will be passer-bys, there won't be that many. The kinds of exclamations your shopkeepers are using right now to show off their products is the kind of thing one does in a bustling metropolis to be heard over the din. Sadrith Mora is really not all that big a city, and with not very many other people on the streets, shouting the value of your wares to the heavens just looks silly. The vendors can afford to be a lot calmer when they try to attract customers, as a result. So, it's a pretty easy fix, just a change of punctuation. The reason I'm emphasizing this so much is because it will greatly affect the way that voice actors read these lines. And I feel like vendors shouting to a nearly empty street would seem a little...wierd. Other than that, it's looking great, and I happily invite you to start on your next cell if you haven't already!

Oh, what a wonderful feeling it is to revisit the thread after a day and see all these lovely updates! Glad to see so many people back on board! [External image]

Twentyengine, I really like your lines for Skenk's Shovel! They're pretty solid, and I don't have too many recommendations to make them better. The only thing I would advise is that you change one of Skenk's lined from "especially native Dark Elves" to "especially the natives." In the predominantly-dunmer island of Vvardenfell, specifying the native inhabitants as dunmer is a little redundant. Plus, just saying "the natives" gives a greater sense of familiarity with the people there, and just rolls off the tongue better in general. Beyond that, though, it's looking great, and I invite you to start work on your next cell!

Willowisp, the update looks good! I am kicking myself right now, however, because there's something I COMPLETELY forgot to mention to you last time, concerning some of Brallion's lines. You depict him as deliberately malicious towards the slaves, and it gives him the impression of holding some sort of grudge against them. The way you have him constantly taunting and mocking them implies that he does his job just for the sake of making Argonians and Khajiits miserable. That's the kind of thing that slavers at the Dren Plantation would do, deliberately demeaning and demoralizing their prisoners, but Brallion isn't really that kind of slaver. He's a slave merchant, pawning off the products after they've already been "broken in" by slavers. His disposition, as a result, would be something more like ambivalence and willful ignorance towards the concerns of his prisoners, rather than spite. He would treat them like animals, and not so much refute their very real emotions but instead refuse to acknowledge them. Think stupid, not evil. Now, this is just my opinion, and you're welcome to change Brallion's lines or leave them as you so desire. Just thought I'd give my two cents there. :)

Also, in regards to missing the Gateway Inn, I can't say I'm too surprised. I made that list myself, and I knew that there would doubtless be some places that I missed, having nothing but the UESP as my guide. Thanks for catching that mistake, though! I'll even go ahead and add that to the signup sheet!

Aurabelle, wow. Amazing work, as always! I'm glad to see you and Denevir are getting along swimmingly [External image]. I would definitely heed his advice, the guy knows what he's talking about. In terms of writing style, however, you've got it down! I especially like the dialog you've given to the orcs, you've captured their essence very well. Honestly, I'm happy to leave it at that. You've passed my review without a single criticism, which is quite a feat!

Michaelstao, glad to see you're making progress! I would have a few pieces of advice for this round of review, though. The first has to do with your solo lines, when the NPCs are muttering to themselves. I like what you're trying to do with making them sound more like natural thoughts, but you're putting in too many pauses. Let me try to create an example. Imagine you had a generic NPC, and you wanted him to convey something like, "Some day, when I'm older, I would like to join the Blades. But would they have someone as humble and lowborn as I?" Now, as we went over before, this sounds far too stiff and awkward to be a natural thought. But how do we fix this? At the moment, this is how you're conveying a thought like this: "Someday...when I'm older...join the Blades...but would they want me? ...Too lowborn..." Now, the issue with this is that, while it does make it sound more like a thought, it also slows down the pace of the thought so much that it feels like the NPC is struggling to even comprehend it. Rather than putting several "..."s throughout the thought, it sounds much more natural if you use fragments instead. This is the way that I would frame the thought: "Maybe I'll join the blades someday. But still... I'm so low-born." This still conveys the full message, but in a much more concise way by omitting some of the more flowery language. So, basically, it's what you're already doing, but minus all the extended pauses, because that makes the thought sound unnatural. I hope that makes some sense. Why don't you try your hand at that and send me another update, and we can work from there?

Krysalynne, these lines are looking great! They're just the right length now! I'd say you're pretty much good for the lines you've already written now (although one last typo check may be in order [External image]), so I look forward to seeing your progress with the chapel and garrison!

Sputnick, glad you're back! Whenever you're ready, we can get back to work!

Wow, that was a long review list. I'm beat, but in a good way! All this productivity brings a tear to my eye! :')

Willowisp, nice job on the revisions! It's looking really good! As for your new lines, I'm very impressed by them, and I for one would be willing to pass them through inspection as they are now. There's only one line that sounds a little strange to me, which comes from Nalion: "A haunting, in an inn I'm staying in!" That's just a few too many "in"s found in that sentence for my liking. But that's a five-second fix. Aside from that, your writing is impeccable!

Twentyenginerunner, for being so worried about Argonian lines, you handled them pretty well! I didn't notice any slip-ups in their dialect, so you have nothing to worry about there! As for whether dialog can happen between the cells, we can probably make it happen. And if we can, we should include the mutterings anyway. It never hurts to have more! Now, some things for review. I'm not sure if Dranas Sarathram's conversation with Yakov really makes sense. He may wear fancy clothes, but he's a slaver. He has a blatant disregard for the well-being of races other than his own, and as a result, he's probably not going to stoop to debating ethics with his captives. In fact, he'll probably be completely oblivious to their plight, because he really doesn't care. As a result, any conversations that he has with his slaves would most likely be curt and perhaps abrasive, but he certainly  wouldn't feel the need to justify his actions to his own "property." If he would have this debate (which I think definitely SHOULD be included, as it is quite insightful), it should be done in a way that paints Dranas as, I don't know, more uncaring. Now, there's one more thing I wanted to talk about, and this is just for future reference. What you have for your current lines is fine. Your writing is very fluent and well thought-out, and while I mean that as a compliment, I also half-mean it as a criticism. I've noticed that you have a tendency to write for all your characters with very poetic prose, but you should be sure to remember that not all of these characters are necessarily well-educated or strong speakers. All the slaves you've written for, for instance, speak just like Yakov and Dranas in terms of their levels of education, which most slaves wouldn't have. Many of these creatures have been slaves for much of their lives, and as a result, most would not be very literate, and would speak with the dumbed-down language that has been allowed them by their masters. That's not to say that they can't be smart, or that some of them can't be well spoken, but the majority would use simple, often very apologetic language, as a result of their harsh upbringing. That's just an example, though. I guess my point is that sometimes you have to deliberately simplify a character's language in order to convey essential facets of their personality or upbringing.

Oh, also, about the poems, I think the possible implementation of those would be a good question for the higher-ups, such as Smitehammer and our loremaster, Denevir. I'm not really sure if they could fit in the world of Morrowind, so I really can't tell you myself.

Michaelstao, I'm sorry to hear that, but I'm sure you'll find your niche elsewhere! I'm still looking forward to seeing your updated lines, though!

Aurabelle, I continue to be impressed by the quality of your work! There really wasn't much material that needed writing for this cell, and I can't really find anything wrong with what you've written for it, so it gets my seal of approval!